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Whoosh!
That's a big chunk of stuff
to chew on...
We usually managed combat
thus:
1. Roll d6 for initiative, low score going first.
2. Weapons attacks and spells with a segment cost of 1
3. Spells with more than 1 segment time involved add 1 pip to the initiative
roll per segment, so 2 adds 1, 3 adds 2, and so on.
A 6-segment-long spell adding 5 meant that at best it would happen simultaneously
with the opponents actions who had rolled a 6 on initiative.
4. Moving into combat range against a longer weapon
gave the opponent first attack.
5. Simultaneous attacks occured together where adjusted initiative was
the same for both sides.
Yes.
the d10 matches the division of the round into segments and so is more
intuitively understood 
Cheers,
Gary
Initiative (DMG)
| Initiative for Creatures with Multiple Attack Routines | Initiative | - | Ties | Inflicting Damage |
| Combat | - | - | - | DMG |
Surprise
gives initiative to the non- || less- surprised party. It is otherwise
determined when an encounter
occurs and at the start of each combat
round. It indicates which
of the two parties will act/react.
Again, a d6 is rolled, and
the scores for the two parties are compared. <note that Gary adovcated
the use of a d10, in his forum posts>
(It is recommended that
such initiative rolls be made openly unless there is some
reason to hide that of the
encountered monster party -- such as special
bonuses which would be unknown
to the PCs involved.)
The higher of the two rolls
is said to possess the Initiative for that melee round.
(While it is not accurate
to roll one die for all individuals comprising each party,
it is a convenient and necessary
expedient. Separate rolls could be
made for each member of
two small groups, for instance, but what
happens to this simple,
brief determination if one party consists of 9 characters
and 6 henchmen
and the other of 7 giants && 19
dire
wolves, let us say?)
Possession of initiative
allows the individuals to take action or reaction
as desired according to
the foregoing list of alternatives, and as detailed hereafter.
The DEX
|| SPEED of individuals or weapons is not
considered in the 1 minute round except as
hereafter noted.
<note: both the PH
and *UA* contradict the above><citation links needed>
Hold Initiative <(WAIT)>:
Holding initiative is simply waiting until
the other side has acted
before doing anything. - OSRIC, page 121
Q: How do high dexterity scores or a short sword of quickness affect initiative?
A: High DEX never
affects initiative; it <iirc, there is a passage in the PH that
mentions that DEX does affect init>
affects only surprise. A
short sword of
quickness allows the wielder
to attack
first. This is not the same
has having the
initiative; a thief-acrobat
(for example)
cannot automatically evade
each round
simply because he has a
short sword of
quickness. He must win the
die roll before
he can evade.
(150.36)
<A.D.D.I.C.T>
<If no mathematical changes, then use
that instead ...>
ScottyG wrote:
Wow, I must have misunderstood
you the last time this came up.
That's how I originally
used to do it, but I changed my method because I thought you stated that
all actions begin at the beginning of the round.
Always learning new things
around here.
Scott
The action of casting a
spell, or doing anything else, begins in the segment of the round indicated
by initiative score, at the start of that segment.
Cheers,
Gary
Scott @ Work wrote:
Greg, winning initiative
gives you the advantage.
to express this advantage,
sometimes you have to use the other side's initiative result.
That is if you go with the
high result wins approach.
If you do go with low side
wins, then you will always use your own result.
Scott
Greg,
Just as Scott says above. either way works.
Cheers,
Gary
Faraer wrote:
Hi Gary, I'm reacquainting
myself with the AD&D rules right now,
as well as LA
for the first time.
So do we take it that spell-casting is interrupted by a successful attack that occurs at any time in the round before spell completion, even before the spell is begun (on the spell-caster's initiative)?
Okay... one needs to do
such things, as memory tends to fade 
No, a spell-caster attacked
before he or she begins the casting is not prevented from starting thereafter....if
life remains
Now I need to review the final layout for the Castle Zagyg, Yggsburgh work. and I had hoped to be semi-retired.!
Cheers,
Gary
DMPrata wrote:
Gary, please forgive me
if I belabour this issue, but 24 hours ago I thought I understood initiative.
This is a new concept for
me, and it effectively invalidates the 20-page initiative explanation I
posted yesterday, so I want to be sure I have it right before I go back
to the drawing board.
A fighter attacks a magic-user.
The fighter rolls a 3, and
the MU rolls a 6.
If I understand you, the
MU's spell will begin in segment 3, and take effect (casting time minus
one) segments later.
The fighter's attack will
come in segment 6.
No, each individual's action
begins in the segment indicated.
the fighter will attack
in segment 3, the M-U begin the spell in segment 6.
I think that's straightforward.
Multiple attacks will be in following successive segments, or delayed as the character wished.
Cheers,
Gary
Greg Ellis wrote:
...
Shall we start up a big "spirit of the rules" vs. "letter of the rules as written" discussion now?
Naw, I didn't think so... 
Best wishes,
Greg
Right, I have long ago switched
to low roll is first action as the easiest.
If the high roll system
is used, just deduct the nmumber from 10 to find when the first action
begins.
Cheers,
Gary
Melkor wrote:
In the meantime, I'm thinking
about moving to a simplified initiative system in AD&D.
From emailing you about
it previously, I know that you have gone to a D10 system, and seldom use
Weapon Speeds (save for battles with important NPCs).
Here's how I am thinking of handling initiative in my AD&D games:
• Each player rolls 1D10. Roll determines when the character acts (so lower is better).
• Spellcasters add casting segment times to the roll.
• Missile Weapon users can deduct Dexterity Reaction Adjustment from their initiative roll.
• Weapon Speeds (when used) only apply to characters acting on tied initiative rolls.
• Longer weapons strike first on a charge.
Does this tend to match what you use ?
If not, would you mind stating briefly how it differs from what you use ?
Thanks.
What you have set forth
for initiative is right on in my book.
I do usually have only two
rlls when a latge character party is engaged in combat with a large group
of adversaries, though.
that makes for speedier
and less confusing combat resolution, albeit at the sacrifice of "realism".
Cheers,
Gary
Melkor wrote:
Gary,
Thanks a million. That little initiative thing has bugged me for quite some time. I always want to play 'by the book', but since there are so many different interpretations on AD&D's initiative, I decided to go ahead and simplify it.
One thing I forgot to include would be a note regarding what happens if a spellcaster's casting time takes him into the next round. From what I understand (and please correct me if I am wrong):
• A spellcaster begins casting his spell on the segment rolled on the initiative die. That segment is considered to be the first segment of the spell's Casting Time.
• A character who's casting segment time, when combined with his initiative die roll, totals over '10' will act on the segment of the next round based on that total (for example, a roll of 9, and a casting time of 3 would act on segment 1 of the next round). Unfortunately for the spellcaster, after casting that spell, he would not be able to act again until the following round.
9 + 3 = 12, so the spell
activates on that segment (2) of the next round, and indeed that's it for
the spell caster.
Quote:
My only other question would
be if you still allow attacks against spellcasters from attackers who might
have rolled a higher initiative (and thus acted later in the round).
Logically, what would prevent
such attacks from taking place?
Quote:
Forgive me for feeling the
need to base what I want to use in my game on judgements from you, but
I figured that if it was good enough for 'the man himself', it was certainly
good enough for my gaming group and I.
In addition, for whatever reason, that makes me feel like I have satisfied my need to continue debating about the AD&D initiative system (as written) on various forums......Now, it's on to the purpose of playing games in the first place....FUN!
Cheers!
Whataver initiative system
you decide upon is completely correct for your campaign;)
Cheers,
Gary
Melkor wrote:
I was thinking for some reason
that the '9' would actually be considered the first segment of the 3 segment
casting time so it would look like 9 + (3-1).....I never was very good
at math though. 
Casting begins on segment
9, and a 1 segment spell would be activated on segment 10, indeed, so a
9 + 3 =12 is correct.
the 3 segment spell will
be cast on the 2nd segment of the following round.
Quote:
I wasn't clear in what I
was trying to ask. My apologies. My question should have been:
Would the attacker still have a chance to attack the spellcaster (out of initiative sequence) before he 'got the spell off', thus disrupting his casting, even though the attacker had lost initiative?
I fear that I am not absolutely
certain of the question even now....
If a spell-caster is continuing a casting into a following round, any opponent that has an attack coming n a segment prior to the time the spell will be active can attack and with a successful hit destroy the chance of the spell being cast.
An attacker with action coming after a spell caster has completed his spell is powerless to interrupt the process.
Cheers,
Gary
Melkor,
Who cares what a whiining
player has to say about the method of initiative you, the DM, use?
Of course the twit wants
his spell casting ability to enable multiple results in a round.
I am sure that the fighters
would like to be able to attack once every segment too.
Bah!
Gary
* CASTING TIME IN COMBAT
Spell Casting:
A spell that requires one
segment to cast is active on the segment after the one in which it was
cast.
If that segemnt was the
1st, the spell is cast at the beginning of the 2nd segment, if the 2nd,
then it is cast at the beginning of the 3rd and so forth.
The segment time is a whole
number, so each segment is added to the initiative segment number.
A spell requiring one segment
of casting time can not be cast in the same segment as initiative indicated
action begins.
The spell is started then
and cast at the beginning of the following segment as it requires whole
segments to cast, not some fraction of a segment, not even 99/100ths.
Cheers,
Gary
Joe Maccarrone wrote:
Wizened Master,
When using a D10 for AD&D initiative, do you have characters with multiple attacks space them evenly in the round -- for example, a character with 2 attacks making the second one 5 segments after the first (or during segment 10, if the first is later than 5)? Or does the second attack always come last, after the opposition has had a chance to attack?
Thanks. 
Joe
"Wizened Master" is it?!
Okay, wise guy, I'm hauling
you in for that
If a PC with multiple attacks
gets a 9 or 10 he blew the chance for an added attack.
Otherwise, the first attack
comes on the indicated segment, the second on the last segment.
I figure there must be at least two segments between attacks unless the character has magically hastened reactions, then only 1 segment per sttack is needed.
Cheers,
Gary
Joe Maccarrone wrote:
...
Thanks for the initiative
info.
I stuck with a D6 for 25
years because it was 'traditional', but the D10 makes initiative both more
precise and easier to keep straight in the noggin'..
Joe
Yes. the d10 matches the
division of the round into segments and so is more intuitively understood
Cheers,
Gary
Anonymous wrote:
Greetings Gary!
I think you may have answered
this question some place else, but can't seem to find it. So I will ask
it briefly again.
If a spell caster begins
casting a 5 segment spell on seg. 6, would that spell carry over to seg.
1 of the following combat round.
6+5=11-10=1
Thanks again!
Exactly!
the five-segment-ling spell
casting begun on the sixth segment would activate on the first segment
of the following round.
Cheers,
Gary
Anonymous wrote:
Thanks Gary,
A few follow ups, if you don't mind:
Is this the proper interp. of roling init.
-DM vs. Player (player states
intent, DM thinks his, and the two sides role)
DM roles 3 Player roles
6. The player goes first, starting actions on seg. 3, the DM goes second
starting on seg. 6.
That is correct.
Quote:
Initiative:
Spellcasting is done independantly
from initiative.
A spell's segment determines
where in the round the commencement of the spell takes place, in regards
to weapon attacks and other spellcasters.
Spellcasting must be announced prior to rolling for initiative.
...
Yes, as the spell-caster
announces intent first, that means he is commencing the activation of the
spell at the beginning of the round, so initiative does not affect that.
As for the rest you are also correct.
Quote:
Other than the above scenario,
weapon speed is only used when simultaneous initiative is rolled after
the initial round of combat (A weapon's speed does not apply to the initial
round of combat),
Where initiative is equal
the longer weapon strikes first in the initial round.
Quote:
in which case it determines
which opponent strikes first. The faster weapon speed is then compared
to the slower to determine if the faster weapon gets additional (Extra)
attacks before the slower weapon gets it's attack. If the weapon speed
of the slower weapon is at least twice as much (or 5 factors more) the
speed of the faster weapon, the character with the faster weapon gets two
attacks. If it is 10 or more, the character with the faster weapon gets
two attacks before, and one attack simultaneous with the slower-weaponed
character.
We seldom used this rule,
but
yes, that is correct.
Quote:
In the case of a weapon
set against charge, the initiative is automatically given to the character
with the weapon set against an onrushing opponent.
The exception to this would
be where the onrushing opponent has a longer weapon--a lancer versus an
opponent with a short pole-arm or spear of 8' or less length.
[/QUOTE]A fighter able to
strike more than once during a round will attack once before opponents
with only a single attack. A fighter with multiple attacks fighting another
fighter with multiple attacks uses initiative to tell who attacks first.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that is correct, but
when two opponents with two attacks each are concerned,
the one with initiative
strikes first,
then the slower responds,
the initiative holder attacks
a second time,
followed by the second attack
of the slower combatant.
A third attack by both follows
that sequence.
If only one had a third
attack it would follow the last of the second exchange.
Cheers,
Gary
Last edited by Col_Pladoh;
3rd March 2004 at 01:11 PM..
Initiative
For Creatures With Multiple Attack Routines: When one or more
creatures involved in combat
are permitted to use their attack routines
twice or more often during
the round, then the following initiative determinants
are employed. When the attack
routine may be used twice,
then allow the side with
this advantage to attack FIRST and LAST with those
members of its group who
have this advantage. If it is possessed by both
parties, the initiative
roll determines which group strikes FIRST and THIRD,
which group strikes SECOND
and LAST. If one or both groups have
members allowed only one
ottack routine, it will always fall in the middle
of the other attacks, the
order determined by dicing for initiative, when
necessary. If one party
has the ability to employ its attack routines thrice,
then the other party dices
for initiative to see if it, or the multi-routine
group, strikes first in
the mid-point of the round. Extrapolate for routines
which occur four or more
times in a round by following the method above.
Note that a routine is the
attack or attacks usual to the creature concerned,
i.e. a weapon (or weapons)
for a character, a claw/claw/bite routine for a
bear
(with incidental; damage assessed as it occurs - the hug, for example).
A 12th level fighter is
allowed attack routines twice in every odd numbered melee round,
for example, and this moves
up to three per round if a haste spell is cast upon the fighter.
Damage from successful attacks
is assessed when the "to hit" score is made and damage determined,
the creature so taking damage
having to survive it in order to follow its attack routine.
Ties:
It will often occur that initiative determination results in a tie.
This merely indicates that
each party has equal chances for acting and that ottacks occur simultaneously.
In cases of equal initiative
score, damage accrues to both groups
regardless of what is inflicted.
<note that Weapon
Speed Factors are used to break ties. See Simultanous
Initiative for details on how this works.>
Inflicting
Damage: Except as noted under Ties, above, damage (or the
general results of some
attack routine such as a turning of undead or casting
of a SLOW
spell) is inflicted upon the reacting party prior to allowing
these creatures their portion
of action in the melee round. Thus, some of
the members of the party
which does not have the initiative might be
caught in a web spell, others
might be turned by a cleric, ond some
damaged or killed/destroyed
by other spells, missile dischorge, and blows
from hand-held.weapons before
they ever hove a chonce to themselves
act. The reacting party's
action could be an attempt to flee, cast spells, hurl
missiles, or melee - it
does not matter. If the reacting party does use
attack routines, for example,
the damage so inflicted will be assessed immediately.
This could well mean that
if they win the initiative roll next
round they can ottack a
second time, doing damage accordingly, before
the opponent party can act.
