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As stated on the CLERICS
AFFECTING UNDEAD TABLE, this function may be attempted only once
by each cleric.
Of course, if there are
two, both may attempt the function, each trying once, etc.
There is also an exceptional
case where turning may be practiced more than once by each and every cleric
concerned.
This occurs in cases where
multiple forms of creatures subject to turning are involved.
If the cleric attempting
the turning is successful against any or all types within the group of
multiple forms of undead,
that type or multiple types,
to the maximum number indicated by
the dice roll or otherwise
indicated by the rules, are turned, and on the
next round the cleric so
successful may attempt to turn other undead of the
group. This process may
continue as long as each successive attempt is
successful and the cleric
lives. Undead so turned (from the group of
multiple types) are lowest
hit dice types to highest HD types, i.e.
first
listed to last listed an
the table. Any failure to turn undead disallows a
further attempt by the same
cleric. Turning can occur at the same time as
missile discharge, magical
device attacks, and/or spell casting. It also is
subject to initiative determination.
If the undead
are in a mixed group - for example, 1 vampire,
3 ghosts,
and 8 ghouls
- you may opt to disallow any turning or other effect if the
most powerful member - in
the example above, the vampire - is not
affected by the cleric.
Naturally, this rule applies only to groups of mixed
undead where the lesser
are following or serving the greater. Mindless
undead, skeletons and zombies,
cannot
be considered. Otherwise, the
cleric will affect undead
according to the die score, with the possibility of
the lesser monsters being
turned or otherwise affected, while greater ones
are unaffected.
ADQ: Is there a verbal
component for
clerical turning?
ADA: No. Turning
is possible even in a
Silence 15' Radius spell.
(Polyhedron #17)
Q. Is there a verbal
component for
clerical turning?
A. No. There is no
verbal component to
the act of a cleric turning
the undead.
It is even possible to turn
creatures
within the area of effect
of a silence,
15'
radius spell.
(Imagine #16)
Q. Has the ability
to TURN the undead got
a maximum range, and if
so, what is it?
A. No range is given
at all in either of the
Game systems (Basic/Advanced).
However, there must
be limitations. Turning
the undead by
phoning them up simply is
not on.
The undead
must be able to 'see;
the priest
waving the appropriate
holy symbol
at them, and hear whatever
phrase for banishing the
undead <there isn't one>
the priest has chosen to
employ. The
relevant dice are then rolled,
and the
undead are turned (or not).
It is
reasonable to assume that
those
closest to the priest are
turned before
any that are further away.
Until
an Official ruling appears, we
suggest that the maximum
range for
turning the undead is 60
feet/yards.
This is a practical maximum
range at
which a priest can get the
message
across that it is a good
idea for the
skeletal chappies to run
away!
(Imagine #28)
ADQ: How many segments
does turning take?
ADA: Zero, but it
may lose to initiative.
(It does not count as an
"action" for the round.)
(Polyhedron #17)
ADQ: Can neutral clerics
turn undead
or paladins, and can they
control them?
ADA: A LN cleric
affects
undead (or paladins) the
same as a good
cleric does; a CN cleric
affects
them as an evil cleric would.
(Note that if
a character exhibits a marked
tendency
toward good or evil, the
DM may allow
this to overrule the normal
result.)
(Polyhedron #17)
ADQ: Can clerics turn
undead in the lower
planes?
ADA: Yes, but they
cannot destroy them. The
DM may apply penalties to
the TURN if desired.
Note that no "special" can
be turned or
destroyed "at home."
(Polyhedron #19)
ADQ: Must a priest
concentrate to TURN undead?
ADA: Yes. Consider
the action as requiring
verbal, somatic and material
components.
(Polyhedron #21)
Exception: Certain
religions exist where the cleric's holy symbol
is also his or her weapon
(for example, some GMs may
permit clerics of the god
Thor to carry a hammer which doubles
as a holy symbol). In this
case, the cleric will be able to
make a TURN undead attempt
with his or her weapon in hand,
although even this situation
does not empower the cleric to
attack and attempt to TURN
undead in the same round. If the
cleric is successful in
a turning attempt, he or she may try again
next round. If the cleric
fails, no further turning attempt may
be made during this encounter
- OSRIC, page 123 <?>
Q: Can a cleric turn
undead, then
attack, run away, or cast
a spell in
the same round? Or does
he stand
there for a whole round,
give up
shield and dexterity adjustments
to
armor class, and hope that
the turning
works?
A: Turning undead
is a separate activity. A
cleric who turns undead
may not fire
missiles, melee, or cast
spells in the same
round as he turns undead,
although he
defends normally and may
be able to
move (DM's option).
(150.38)
Q: What effect does
a neutral (instead of
good or evil) cleric have
when trying to
Turn Undead?
A: First of all, a
"neutral cleric" could be
LN, CN or
N. An N cleric is
called a druid, and cannot
affect Undead. <UA allows for N clerics>
The verdict on the other
2 is
undecided, as yet, and could
end up
either of 2 ways, the 1st
giving the
choice to the cleric --
that is, whether a
"good cleric" or "evil cleric"
effect is desired.
The 2nd possibility involves
the cleric's whole alignment;
LNs
would affect Chaotic Undead
as if good clerics, and
Lawful Undead as
if evil. The reverse would
apply to Chaotic
clerics.
(Polyhedron #9)
Evil Clerics:
Anything below a result of
T indicates that the undead are
compelled to do some service.
Treat this in the same way
as an invisible stalker serving
a magic-user.
The length of service so
compelled is equal to 24 hours minus the min. score the cleric needed to
compel such service.
Example:
A 9th level evil cleric meets a lich, and scores 20 on the die roll,
so the
lich will be neutral and not attack far 8 hours (24-16);
later
the same cleric encounters a vampire, and scores a 12,
so the
vampire will join the evil cleric and serve as a member of the cleric's
group for up to 14
hours
(24-10).
A successful result of "T"
indicates that the undead will remain neutral or serve for a full 24 hour
period.
A "D" result indicotes co-operative
service by the undead as long as the evil cleric renews his or her control
every 6 days.
In any of the above cases,
hostile acts against the undead or associated creotures will certainly
cause the cleric's effects to be totally broken ond negated entirely.
Hostile acts include
entry
into on area which the affected creotures have been commanded to guard,
attempts
to remove guarded items or treasure belonging to the affected creatures,
attempts
to prevent the affected creatures from carrying out commonds,
or actual
attack by spell, weapon, or other forms which cause the affected creatures
harm.
N.B.: Any commanded
creature will immediately be freed from clerical
compulsion upon the unconsciousness
(excepting normal sleep) or death
of the cleric who successfully
compelled them to service. This will result in
the affected undeod or other
affected creature or creatures either leaving
or attacking the cleric
and his or her group according to the existing circumstances.
Consider treatment and risk
when arriving at the action the
affected creature takes.
Mindless undead will simply do nothing, losing all
animation and direction.
Optional Rule: An
evil cleric may control no more HD
worth of undead than his
or her level of experience; thus a
9th level evil cleric could
control no more than two wights,
for example. - OSRIC, page
123
Counter-Affecting:
A cleric of opposite alignment may attempt to negate
the effects of a cleric
who has affected undead or other creatures. The
table is consulted, and
if the countering cleric is successful, the affected
undead are freed of the
effects of the first cleric's efforts. Of course, this
counter will not restore
any undead destroyed/damned by a good cleric.
This counter may in turn
be countered, etc. This may continue indefinitely
until one or the other cleric
fails and is no longer eligible to affect undead
et al. When affected creatures
have clerical effects countered, they are
powerless to take any action
on the following round.
You may wish to establish
areas where evil has made special
power bases, i.e., an evil
shrine, temple, or whatever. Such areas must be
limited, of course -- the
shrine to perhaps a 10" by 10" area, the temple to
twice that area. Such areas
will automatically reduce the chance of any
cleric affecting undead
or other creatures within their precincts by a
previously stipulated factor
- perhaps 1 or 2 in the shrine area, 3 or 4 in
the temple area. This power
can be destroyed only by desecration of the
evil, i.e. breaking of the
evil altar service, pouring of holy water upon the
altar, blessing and prayers,
and whatever other actions you, as DM, deem
sufficient. Thus, in an
area specially consecrated to evil, undead and associated
creatures from the lower
planes are far more difficult to handle.
The corollary to this is
that on the lower planes themselves, good clerics
are totalluy unable to affect
the evil creatures who dwell upon them, while
on the upper planes, an
evil cleric would have no effect upon a paladin.
Good areas are similar bases
of power for such creatures, and evil clerics
will have lesser chances
of affecting paladins or similar good aligned
creatures.
Dragon Fire wrote:
Gary, a few questions:
A few?! 
Quote:
What was your "reasoning"
behind a cleric's turning ability, as in how is it able to function?
The fokelore example of
a vampire being turned by a cleric presenting the cross.
Quote:
Is the cleric turning the
spirit/soul within the undead?
I don't understand what
distinction you are attempting to assert. the undead are turned, be they
material or spirit, as indicated in the mechanic.
Quote:
Or is the cleric turning
the unholy vessel (body)?
That too.
Quote:
Pcs round a corner, and
face off against say 18 ghouls, 3 abbrest in a 10` wide corridor. Backing
the ghouls at the rear, are a 6 pack of ghasts. The pcs front ranks contains
a pair of clerics, which both make their turn attemps making a totak of
12 of the ghouls flee... But since there backs are closed off due to the
other ghouls and ghasts behind them they cannot flee. SO does the turn
fail? Do they get to just turn around and fight???
I would check to see if
the ghasts allow the ghouls to filter through their line, maybe a 50% chance.
If not, the ghasts force
the ghouls before them almost as shields, can't be attacked as the ghouls
can--
they not attacking at all,
but there as targets, and then the ghasts counter-attack the PC party.
If the ghasts allow the
ghouls to pass through their line, then the combat situation that follows
is a normal one.
Cheers,
Gary
DMPrata wrote:
This situation would be
a perfect use of the optional turning rule presented on Dungeon Masters
Guide, p. 65:
Quote:
If the undead are in a mixed
group — for example, 1 vampire, 3 ghosts, and 8 ghouls — you may opt to
disallow any turning or other effect if the most powerful member — in the
example above, the vampire — is not affected by the cleric.
Hence, the ghouls would not flee if the ghasts were unaffected.
(Sorry to hijack the punning thread)
Perhaps...if the ghouls
were backed up by some undead more fearsome than ghasts.
Note that the example has
a vampire and a trio of ghosts radiating their evil nagativity 
Cheers,
Gary
Geoffrey wrote:
2. If you could travel back
in time to the early 1970s, would you still make it that clerics can turn
undead?
I ask because of these words
you wrote on page 101 of the original version of Necropolis:
'Priests and Priestesses
have no extraordinary ability to affect the Netherrealms creatures and
beings, spirits, Unliving, Undead, and Unalive in this game system. There
will be no mumbled prayer followed by a "Vaporize!" or "Shoo!" removing
dangers such as these foes in this tomb! Naturally, clerical personas wield
many instruments which are amongst the Susceptibilities of these sorts
of creatures and beings, but there are no givens ("gimmes") here. Be sure
to keep this in mind--and to gently remind players of this too, if they
are veterans of game systems which make this sort of fell minions of Evil
lightweights to be brushed aside with the wave of a sacred object.'
Thank you once again for your kindness and generosity!
2. So many of the very most
interesting "monsters" were subjected to that rude capacity of turning/destroying
that I initially bestowed upon the cleric class that I did indeed come
to rue the initial benison gven to that class.
My plan for a revised edition
of AD&D was such as to limit that power
somewhat while adjusting things for the capacity of undead to withstand
"turning" so as to make things more challenging for PCs without emasculating
the power of the cleric.
Alas, that was not to be
in AD&D terms, so I did things differently
in the DJ system, as you note, and have continued that fine tradition now
in the LA RPG
Cheerio,
Gary
Quote:
Originally posted by Melan
Salutations!
Angrypossum's query about the healing potion got me thinking bout another main element of the game: turning undead. Do I recall correctly that you later regretted the inclusion of this ability in the game? If you redid OD&D for its new comeback (red, velvet-covered box, leatherbound booklets and all), how would you approach the class? Or, for that matter, other classes? Would you change them at all?
Considering how potent I
made undead, I wouldn't really change much in regards the clerical turning
of them.
I might put strictures on
the alignment of the undead as opposed to the cleric, the tables used iriginally
being for the diametrically opposed--LE-CG, NE-NG, and CE-LG.
Actually, not being much
given to pointless specualtion, I have never sat down and contemplated
in serious manner what changes I would make in OAD&D were I about to
revise it.
too many real creative things
to do 
Back in 1984 I was gearing
up to do a revision, made notes that T$R had and didn't follow.
Most of that I have forgotten
now, what with so many other creative works envisaged and written.
Cheers,
Gary
