Character With Two Classes, The

The Character With Two Classes

Hennet

Unlike multi-classed characters who are of non- or semi-human race, the
character with two classes must be human. To attain the second class, the
character must switch his or her profession at some point.
Thereafter no progression in the original class is possible.

Question: Once a character drops a
class to switch to another class, can
he/she ever gain levels in his/her former
class?

Answer: No. According to page 33 of
the PH, “...no progression
in the original class is possible” after a
character decides to switch to a different
profession. Note that this is different
from a multi-classed character, who
holds two or more professions simul-
taneously and gains experience in more
than one class at the same time. Also
note that only human characters can
“drop a class” and take up a new one.

In order to switch from one class to another, the character must have an
ability score of 15 or more in the principal attribute(s) ability of the
original class and a 17 || 18 in the principal attribute(s) of the class
changed to. Note that nearly any combination of classes is thus possible,
i.e. cleric & fighter, cleric & paladin, cleric & ranger, etc. Alignment will
preclude some combinations.

Question: If a fighter has a basic DEX score of 16 but
needs a DEX of 17 to change classes and become a thief,
can he become a thief if he has a magic item that raises his
DEX to 17?

Answer: No.
If he raises his DEX to 17 by a Wish or by drinking
a potion whose effects are permanent, or by any other means which
bring about a permanent change, then it is permissible to change to a
thief. Simply possessing a magic item that raises DEX to 17 is not
enough, since the raise in DEX would no longer apply if the char-
acter lost possession of that item. — J. Wells
l l l

When the character opts to cease his or her old profession and become a
new class, the character retains the number of HD (and the
commensurate HP) due to a character of the level of his or her class.
However, all other functions of the character are at 1st level of
experience, for that is his or her ability in the newly espoused class.
Furthermore, if, during the of any adventure, the character resorts
to the use of any of the capabilities of functions of his or her former class,
the character gains no experience for the adventure. Having switched
classes, the character must perform strictly within the parameters of his or
her new profession. Reversion to the former class negates all experience
potential for the new class with respect to the course of recent activities,
i.e. the adventure during which original profession functions were
resorted to.

At such time as the character has attained a level of experience in his or
her new class which exceeds the character's former class level, the following
benefits are gained:

    1. A HD appropriate to the new class is gained for each
    increase in level of experience, up to the max. normal for
    the class in question (and thereafter HP are likewise
    gained), and

    2. The character may mix functions freely and still gain
    experience, although restrictions regarding armor, shield,
    and/or weapon apply with regard to operations particular to
    one or both classes.

Example: A character with ability scores of 15 strength, 17 intelligence, 12
wisdom, 10 dexterity, 16 constitution, and 7 charisma is begun as a fighter.
After attaining 6th level, the player switches the character to magic-user.
This allows the character to retain six ten-sided hit dice, but in all other
respects he or she must be a 1st level magic-user, wearing no armor,
carrying those weapons usable by his or her new class, and using spells to
combat opponents. When 7th level of experience is gained, however, the
character gets a four-sided hit die for additional hit points he or she can
sustain at the new level. Furthermore, the character can now carry (but not
wear) armor and weapons not normally usable by magic-users, and resort
to their use if the need arises and not be penalized in respect to
experience as a magic-user, for he or she has already surpassed in the
new class the disciplines of the former. Thus, no harm accrues to his or her
experience as a magic-user. Note that this does not allow spell use while
armor clad, such as an elven fighter/magic user is able to-do.

QUESTION: One of my friends has a Cleric/Magic-User/Fighter who is human.
In the Players Handbook it says that
humans are not limited as to what class they can become.
Under the section on multi-class characters it says only half-
elves can be Clerics/Magic-Users/Fighters. I say his human
cannot be multi-classed and he says he can. Who is right?

ANSWER:You are. Humans can only be one class at a time unless
they opt to change classes. For instance, a 7th-level Fighter decides that
she now desires to become a MU. She must not pick up her
sword and use it again until she is a 7th-level Magic-User or she will lose
any experience she would have gained in that adventure as a Magic-
User. Once she reaches her level as that of a fighter, i.e. 7th-level
Fighter, and 7th-level Magic-User, she may now use her sword, but she
cannot wear armor and cast spells. Humans may become dual class
and they are not limited as to how far they can advance, as are the other
races who can become multi-classed.

Question: My character is a 9th-level Druid changed to
a Magic-User (he is now 10th level as a M-U). I want to be
able to put my previously owned Apparatus of Kwalish in-
side my newly acquired Mighty Servant of Leuk-O. Then I
would have the ultimate weapon: If the need arose, I could
abandon the Mighty Servant and escape via the Apparatus of Kwalish.
My ability scores are Str 13, Int 18(83), Wis 18(90), Dex
12, Con 11, Cha 18(84) and MR 10 (mental resistance, a trait
our group uses for psionic combat). He has an unbelievable 338 psionic points! <check this>
Is it possible for my character to change classes a third time?
He wants to become a Cleric. He is not content to just be able to cast Druid and M-U spells.
Is there any way for this to happen?
Also, if he changes alignment (not of his choosing) from neutral, does he lose his Druid powers?
Our DM is very big on traps that change alignments.

Answer: Skip Williams picked up this letter to answer, and the
next thing I knew he was scampering for a hiding place. Wondering
what scared him (because not very much does), I picked up the
letter. My first reaction was IIIIIIIEEEEEE!!!!
    No, I don’t recommend that you place the Apparatus in the
Mighty Servant. We don’t believe it would fit, and your DM
shouldn’t allow you to do it even if it does fit. It wouldn’t be possible
to operate the Mighty Servant with the Apparatus inside it, and if
your DM lets you do it, he’s a fool. I think he’s foolish anyway to let
you have those magic items in the first place.
    Now, for your error concerning ability scores. The only score that
may exceed 18 is strength. I don’t know where you got the idea that
others could. (Editor’s note: Ability scores besides strength exceed
18 only in the cases of deities or legendary or hypothetical
characters, such as those in Giants of the Earth.)
    As for the loss of neutral alignment, yes, your Druid ability would also be lost.
    Now here’s a question for you: Have you ever thought of retiring
this character if you are so restless and want to keep changing
classes? It is possible to have more than one character at a time in a
campaign, you know. If you insist on changing, there is no reason
why you cannot switch classes again—but you can’t become a
Cleric, since you already are a Druid and Druid is a subclass of Cleric.
(Correction: Technically, the above character does not have the required 17s to enter a third class).
(Correction: Cavaliers and paladins can raise scores other than Strength above 18, up to 18/00).
(Clarification: Several PC races can have ability scores of 19-20 at start. What is referred to here is % additions to an ability score of 18).

Question: Can a human fighter split class into a monk if he has the required abilities?

Answer: Even though the answer to this question can easily be found in
the AD&D rules, it gives the sage an opportunity to emphasize
some points which a lot of players and DMs seem to have
misinterpreted. Assuming that “split class” means “become
multi-classed,” the answer is NO. Humans cannot be multi-
classed characters, period. And, since only humans can be-
come monks, no character can be a multi-classed monk. If “split
class” instead means “become a character with two classes,”
the answer is a qualified yes. Nothing in the rule books specifi-
cally prohibits a character from taking up the monk class as a
second class, or temporarily abandoning monkish pursuits to
gain experience in a new class. However, a monk (or would-be
monk) who travels this path would effectively forsake all chance
of advancement to the higher levels of the monk class — and it
should probably be stipulated that no upper-level monk (8th or
higher) can decide to stop being a monk and take up a new class
in any event, because an unlawful act of that sort would serious-
ly harm the monkish organizational structure.
The PH says that “nearly any combination of, classes” is
possible, but points out that alignment restrictions will make
some switches impossible without being disqualified from the
former class; for instance, a monk (must be lawful) can never
decide to study as a druid (must be true neutral) without chang-
ing alignment and losing his right to be a monk, or vice versa.

Question: Can a two-classed fighter-cleric use edged weapons and mix the use of these with the use of clerical abilities (spells)?
If this is not allowable,
does that mean a two-classed character must follow the conditions of the more restricted class with regard to the use of certain weapons,
the wearing of certain armor, and other particulars?

Answer: In essence, being a character with two classes means you
can do different things at different times, which makes “double
duty” desirable for some players and their characters. But two-
classed characters (always human) can’t legitimately mix the
abilities and benefits of different classes at the same time the
way multi-classed (always non-human or semi-human) charac-
ters can.
    Like it says on page 33 of the Players Handbook, “restrictions
regarding armor, shield, and/or weapon apply with regard to
operations particular to one or both classes.” From that state-
ment, and the example that follows it concerning a two-classed
fighter and magic-user, we can see that the intent of the rules is
to keep the class functions separate. The result is that a two-
classed character must be played quite a bit differently than a
multi-classed character who is practicing the same professions.
    A fighter-cleric wielding an edged weapon can’t successfully
cast a spell, turn an undead, or perform any other cleric-type
action. If the character wants to be able to hold a weapon and
act as a cleric at the same time, it must be a weapon clerics are
permitted to use. A fighter-MU can “carry (but not wear) armor
and weapons not normally usable by magic-users,” according
to the PH.
    Thus, a two-classed fighter-cleric ought to be allowed to
carry (but not hold) an edged weapon and still use clerical
abilities: It would be okay for the two-classed fighter-cleric to
keep a sword at his belt and TURN an undead, for instance— but
if he tries to do the same thing with a sword in one hand and a
holy symbol in the other, he’d better be ready to use that sword.
A fighter-cleric carrying more than one weapon but not holding
any particular one at a given time can perform as a cleric as long
as one of the weapons he carries is permitted to clerics, and as
long as that particular weapon is the one (if any) being drawn or
wielded.

Question: Are all of the attributes having required minimums to be
construed as "principal attributes" for that class with regard to
two-classed characters?

Answer: Yes, with two exceptions. For the purpose of determining
whether a character is eligible to take up a second class, princi-
pal attributes for each class are considered to be these:
    cleric, wisdom only;
    druid, wisdom and charisma;
    fighter, strength only;
    paladin, everything but dexterity;
    ranger, everything but dexterity and charisma;
    magic-user, intelligence only;
    illusionist, dexterity and intelligence;
    thief, dexterity only;
    assassin, dexterity, intelligence, and strength; and
    monk, everything but charisma and intelligence.
    This includes every ability for which a required minimum is
given, except for the fighter’s constitution, which must be at
least 7, and the magic-user’s dexterity, which the Players
Handbook says must be at least 6. The first exception is made
because “The principal attribute of a fighter is strength,” but
constitution isn’t mentioned in the same sentence (PH, page
22). A “minimum dexterity of 6” is required for magic-users
(page 25), but this is superfluous, since a character with a
dexterity of 5 or lower is always a cleric (page 11).
    Note that the principal attribute(s) for each class may include
abilities in addition to those that apply toward a bonus to
earned experience. To limit the definition of “principal attrib-
utes” to only those abilities that pertain to the experience bonus
would make the system unbalanced and unplayable — unbal-
anced because then it would be easier to become a two-classed
paladin than a two-classed ranger, and unplayable because the
assassin and monk never get an experience bonus, and so by
this definition would not have any “principal attributes.”

SA: Dual-classing may cause one to lose certain psionic powers.

Q: I have a human 2nd-level fighter/
8th-level cleric (using the dualclassed
rules from the Players
Handbook). Can he use edged weapons?
Is there any penalty for their
use?

A: the answers to these questions depend
on which class the character followed
first; it isn?t apparent from the order in
which you list the levels. We?ll guess that
the PC was a fighter first and a cleric
second. In this case, the character can use
edged weapons freely, since he is now a
higher level in his second class (see the
Players Handbook, page 33). There are no
penalties whatsoever for using edged
weapons. When using such weapons,
however, the character attacks as a 2ndlevel
fighter, not an 8th-level cleric.
(139.68)

Q: Is it possible for a human to add
more than one class using the dualclass
rules?

A: Adding more than one class is not recommended
except for the occasional and
extremely rare NPC, but it can be done.
(139.68)

Q: Oriental Adventures says that a
dual-classed character "always uses
the most advantageous combat and
saving throw tables of the two classes
without penalty" (page 28). Does
this mean that a high-level fighter
could make multiple attacks while
studying a second class?

A: Not before he surpasses his fighter level
in the second class, unless he forfeits all
experience for that adventure. Multiple
attacks are a function of the fighter class.
(139.68)

ADQ: With the dual-classed human
option, can a character switch from a
class to a subclass (fighter to paladin, <revise>
for example)?
ADA: No. A character may not switch to
a subclass of the original class.
(Polyhedron #17)

ADQ: If a dual-classed human character
who is still operating only in the
2nd class (i.e. not yet able to use the
benefits of both classes) is hit by a vampire,
from which class are the levels drained?
If they are lost from the 2nd
class, are HP lost as well
(assuming the character has not yet
gained any additional HP from
the 2nd class)?
ADA: The levels come off the 2nd
class, since that is the one in which experience
is currently being gained. If no
new HP were gained with those
levels, no are lost in the level drain.
(Polyhedron #17)

ADQ: Are dual-classed characters entitled
to additional weapon proficiencies
when they start the 2nd class? For
example, suppose a 6th-level fighter
with a STR of 16 and a WIS of
17 becomes a cleric. He was proficient
with 6 weapons as a fighter:
longsword, long bow, dagger, crossbow, <heavy or light or hand?>
javelin, and medium lance. He cannot
use any of those weapons and still gain
experience as a cleric. Is he now
eligible for the 2 weapon proficiencies
that a 1st-level cleric can have in
addition to the first 6?
ADA: Yes. Weapon proficiencies for
dual-classed and multi-classed characters
are cumulative, so characters are entitled
to proficiencies as per the appropriate
levels for all classes professed. A dual-classed
character gains additional
weapon proficiencies as per the 2nd
class. Note that no further proficiencies
for the original class may ever be gained
after the character takes up the 2nd
profession.
(Polyhedron #18)

ADQ: When a human non-fighter character
with 18 STR starts dual-class Life
as a Vet, does the 18 change
to 18/01 or better? How?
ADA: Yes; the player rolls d% at the time
ov the changeover, under DM observation.
Once the fighter profession is begun, the
STR can only return to 18 if the character
suffers enough energy drains to be
forced back into a single class. If such a victim
is restored to dual class (via the 7th level
cleric spell), the same super-strength
returns, a new d% roll is not made.
(Polyhedron #21)

ADQ: Is a monk or paladin who changes
classes still restricted to the number of
magick items he may possess?
ADA: The answer (below) is Official, and
arose from a detailed discussion of the matter
between E. Gary Gygax and Frank Mentzer.
    A druid, paladin, or monk cannot add
another class without reverting to a cleric,
fighter, or thief (respectively).
    When any character "goes dual", the
former class is totally ignored and forgotten
while the new class is being studied. The special
abilities of a druid, paladin, or monk come
from utter devotion to a specific philosophy.
Thus, these characters obviously cannot
totally ignore these philosophies and @ the same
Time xpect to retain any benefits
gained through them.
    A character of some other class, however,
MAY add one of these 3, as AL
&& other factors permit. e.g., a
LG cleric can become a dual-class
cleric-paladin, but a paladin cannot add the
profession of cleric. If a paladin abandons
the "paladin way", he or she voluntarily
and permanently breaks the connection to the
Positive Plane, thus losing all of the special
abilities of paladins and becomgin a normal
fighter (eventually, in this case, becoming a
dual class fighter-cleric). Similarly, a druid
loses the special attunement with Nature,
from whence comes the shapechange and
other abilities; and a monk loses much. The
monk's AC and movement rate revert
to normal once the Discipline is
ignored, and all other special abilities
fade quickly.
    When a character adds druid, paladin, or
monk as a 2nd class, the restrictions that
apply to that class are enforced as soon as
that class training is begun.
(Polyhedron #22)

ADQ: Can a human character change
classes more than once by the dual-classed
human rules?
ADA: No. Dual-classed means exactly that
-- 2 classes. No "triple-classed" character
is mentioned, implied, or allowed by the
rules. Certain exceedingly rare individuals
might gain triple-class status, if the DM
permits, but such a case should involve
great personal service for and devotion to a
deity of great power. This sort of thing is
even beyond the power of wishes, artifacts,
and all other mortal means.
(In my own campaign, there is 1 such
person -- 1 NPC of the hundreds I have
detaialed, known only as "Doc" -- who is a
human paladin/cleric/M-U of disgustingly
lawful and good nature. He was
granted permission to add the M-U
class only so that he could rise high enough
to cast wishes daily on behalf of the
beleaguered forces of good during a 5-century
"dark ages," and also gained an
extended lifespan for the same purpose. The
forces of good have now returned to power,
and Doc is thankfully preparing to die,
quite weary of his tasks.)
(Polyhedron #25)

ADQ: Can a character with 2 classes
gain experience ever again in his 1st
class? Will a wish or perhaps a quest
allow this to work?
ADA: This shuld not normally be allowed
at all. However, if the DM has strong reasons
for wanting the character to gain 1
additional level of experience in the 1st
class, 1 or more wishes might work. But
this should only occur if there are strong
reasons and a specific goal worthy of such a
thing.
(Polyhedron #25)

ADQ: How long is the "introductory"
training period for a human who switches
classes and becomes dual-classed?
ADA: Since the system doesn't specify it,
it's up to the DM's judgement. I usually
require a training period of at least 1-2
months (Game Time) to learn the rudiments
of a new profession. Another campaign in
Lake Geneva uses a number of weeks (Game
Time again) equal to the starting age of a
human in the new class (DMG.12), which is a bit tougher.
(Polyhedron #30)

* * * *
The Forum

While rolling up a friendly neighborhood
arch-villain this afternoon, inspiration
struck. What would happen if I gave this
7th level assassin a single level of experience
as a fighter first? I tried it. The result pro-
duced a staggeringly powerful NPC that
exposed a serious flaw in the current
"Character With Two Classes" rule.

As many players realize, at low levels the
fighter is one of the most powerful classes
around. In fact, a first-level dungeon party
can be composed entirely of these and real-
ize no noticeable difficulties. Most fledgling
magic-users, thieves, and even clerics are
kept going only by the promise of far
greater things to come. Why, resourceful
players may reason, should the entire party
not begin as fighters and switch to the de-
sired class after one level? The DMG's
"cheating" methods for generating abilities
<Method V>
usually provide the high stats required to do
this. It sounds okay, but look at the results:

1. Non-fighter characters normally re-
stricted to 18 strength could receive scores
of 18/50, 18/75, or even 18/00!

2. They would receive four ?starting
weapons? immediately, as well as a gamut
of others upon beginning their new class a
mere 2,000 experience points later. As if
after this weren?t enough, they would ever
fight at only -2 for non-proficiency.

3. They would be able to obtain high hit-
point scores at low levels (why fight a giant
rat when you can take on a hydra?), throw-
ing the game off balance.

4. Upon reaching so much as second level
in their new class, things would get really
out of hand. The now non-fighters would be
able to carry all sorts of extra goodies nor-
mally restricted to fighters to prevent other.
classes from becoming self-made godlings. I
have nightmares of sword-swinging clerics
who sport girdles of giant strength, or of the
warlock with two javelins of lightning, a +3
battle axe, and a rod of lordly might stuffed
in his pack, ?just in case.?

This isn?t the only situation, either. What
about the monk with but one level of magic-
user experience who discovers a wand of
fire in some forgotten crypt. . . ?

Most players, including my own, have
not yet discovered this overly effective strat-
egy, but you can see my problem. Minimal
levels of experience in a class can bestow
such advantages that the whole "Two
Classes" threatens to fall apart. Is there any
way to correct this rule, or to dilute some of
the superhumans it creates? What about
allowable weapons? Should a two-classed
character be permitted at all?

David Hutton
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
(Dragon #81)

* * * *

While reading through my copy of DRAGON
#81, I came across an article by David Hutton in
the Forum section concerning the power of the
character with two classes, and I felt obligated to
express my feelings on the subject.

I feel that the current system of the character
with two classes is very accurate and adds flavor
to the game. I see no evidence in what Mr. Hut-
ton has written that the character with two classes
is so ?staggeringly powerful,? as he puts it. In the
example he gives of an assassin of seventh level
who was once a fighter of first level, I see a
character who wasted two thousand experience
points to gain the ?benefits? of better armor in
combat, which doesn?t come in too handy if the
NPC is attempting to sneak up and assassinate
someone. If you examine the two characters, it is
obvious that an assassin has a better chance to
hit, an equal number of weapons (with just as
many to choose from), and an equal non-
proficiency penalty with his first level fighter part.
The only good which comes out of the whole deal
is that this character can use all the magic weap-
ons a fighter can use, instead of just most of
them, which other thieves and assassins can use.
And I would rather have an assassin in nice quiet
leather armor with a girdle of fire giant strength
than an assassin/first level fighter with a potion of
the same name.

Also, if there is still a reluctance on the part of
you DMs out there, consider this: the more the
power, the greater the risks most players can and
will usually take. In most cases, when characters
die it is because they bit off more than they can
chew. Your characters with two classes are just as
likely to make ridiculous mistakes and blunders
as are your ?normal? characters. To enhance this
swelling of pride is easy; a few peasants falling on
their knees in front of the heroes pleading for
salvation from the local dragon or wizard, or a
king offering a nice, fat ransom to anyone who
can infiltrate the castle of one of his enemies
should blind the characters to all caution and
send them headlong into doom, if for no other
reason than to save their precious reputations.

One final point to consider: If the characters
are that great, sooner or later some deity will call
on them to give eternal service. Former player
characters who have been divinely called do make
great right-hand men and women for most Dun-
geon Masters. . . .

Eric Odgaard
Lincoln, Neb.
(Dragon #82)

Some years ago, when creating the first charac-
ter I would play, a third-level magic-user, I was
distressed by how slim his chances of survival
were. Then I recalled the "Character With Two
Classes" section of the Players Handbook. Sud-
denly I could create a character with a chance.

However, I still didn?t have a character of great
power. In ?The Forum? of DRAGON issue #81,
David Hutton said that by giving a character one
level as a fighter, one would get someone who was
?staggeringly powerful.? I noticed that possibility.
However, having been a DM for some time, I
realized that such problems might be avoided
without a tremendous amount of difficulty.

The key concept in the change of class is the
amount of time necessary to spend in training for
the new class. (Lenard Lakofka thankfully de-
tailed this in DRAGON #51; hopefully that
article will be reprinted in BEST OF DRAGON
IV.) It is on the order of years. This tends to keep
most characters from switching. Also, with this
information the first of David?s problems ? that
a character switching from fighter to another clas
could cause non-fighters with 18/01 to 18/00
strength ? is easily solved. Since no other class
has the need for as much physical strength as
fighters, the muscles that were carefully honed
during fighter training, and vigorously kept up,
will go slack, say at a rate of 05 every other
month, until finally, after 18/01, a strength of 18
is reached, there to remain. (Certain exceptional
individuals might keep their muscles in shape
while training for another class, at the DM?s
option. Training times would be considerably
lengthened.)

David?s second problem was that of weapons of
proficiency. First, he said that the fighter (first
level fighters switching to another class was his
main concern) would have four weapons, and
then would gain even more upon entering the
new class. Again, this is a question of training.
Most people won?t spend the time and money
necessary to learn to use additional weapons (say,
darts if becoming a M-U) if they can already
wield four weapons (say, a long bow, a mace, a
long sword, and a two-handed sword).

He also said that they would ever after fight at
-2 for non-proficiency. This is only true to a
point. They would fight, as a first level fighter, at
-2 (assuming they switched from being a first
level fighter). As an example, let?s take my favor-
ite character, Zephyr, a first level fighter who,
after long years as a wizard?s apprentice, became
a magic-user and then gained three levels (this
first/third level human, having never been unnat-
urally aged ? yet ? was already almost forty
years old). Let us say he found a long sword, with
which he was proficient as a (first level) fighter.
He could use it as a first level proficient fighter,
or as a third level non-proficient mage, at -6
(don?t tell me a mage can?t swing a sword, albeit
poorly). He would, of course, swing as the
fighter. Even if it was a bastard sword, with
which he was non-proficient in both classes, he
would still attack as the fighter.

Now let?s say that Zephyr, after many, many
years of adventuring, has become a 22nd level
Archmage (he hasn?t). Now it is much to his
advantage to swing that +3 sword he made, as a
21+ level M-U, at -6 (as opposed to a proficient
first level fighter).

David?s third problem was high hit point
scores. I am not certain if he meant ?scores? as
in a number of hit points or ?scores? as in ?hits
for damage.? The latter would basically rely on
exceptional strength, which we?ve already dis-
cussed, so I?ll address the former.

As everyone knows, a high constitution can
give a character extra hit points (sometimes a lot
of extra hit points). Non-fighters can, at most,
only get +2 per hit die, but fighters with a consti-
tution of 18 can get +4 per hit die. Add to this the
common practice of giving maximum hit points
for the first level?s hit die (see Len Lakofka?s
article), and one has problems. Fortunately, one
doesn?t gain additional hit points after changing
classes, until the level of the new class exceeds the
level of the old. Second, only the fighter hit dice
will get a +4, the others only getting +2. Take the
first level/third level fighter/M-U again. With an
18 constitution he would get 14 hit points (maxi-
mum 10, +4 constitution bonus) for the fighter
level, and 6-12 hit points for the M-U levels (1-4
for each level after the first, +2 con. for each level
after the first), for a total of 20 to 26 hit points.

Finally, David wonders what would happen if
special ?classed? magic items were used by the
wrong class, say, monks using wands of fire
(because they have one level as a magic-user).
The wizard Zephyr wields the very highly en-
chanted long sword Firefrost ? technically
speaking, it?s an intelligent +5 flaming vorpal
frostbrand. And despite all that, he?s more likely
to hit an opponent with a 2 gp dagger than with
Firefrost.

To sum up, the ?Character With Two Classes?
is not so much a veritable godling (like an ?offi-
cial? bard), but rather is an interesting change
from the typical stereotypes (a wizard with a
sword ? unheard of!) to a more fantastic, more
all-encompassing system wherein a character can
be what he wants to be.

Scott D. Hoffrage
Miller Place, N.Y.
(Dragon #83)

NEW CLASS

CURRENT CLASS CAV Pal CLERIC Druid FIGHTER Barbarian Ranger MAGIC-USER Illusionist THIEF Assassin Thief-Acrobat MONK

CAVALIER x x ? ? ? x ? ? ? ? ? n/a ?

Paladin x x x x x x x x x x x / Yes ¹ n/a x

CLERIC ? Yes x x ? x ? ? ? ? ? n/a ?

Druid ? Yes x x ? x ? ? ? ? ? n/a ?

FIGHTER ? Yes ? ? x x x ? ? ? ? n/a ?

Barbarian x x x x x x x x x x x n/a x

Ranger ? Yes ? ? x x x ? ? ? ? n/a ?

MAGIC-USER ? Yes ? ? ? x ? x x ? ? n/a ?

Illusionist ? Yes ? ? ? x ? x x ? ? n/a ?

THIEF ? Yes ? ? ? x ? ? ? x x n/a ?

Assassin ? x ? ? ? x ? ? ? x x n/a ?

Thief-Acrobat n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a

MONK x x x x x x x x x x x n/a x

Paladins, Monks, and Barbarians (reference)

¹Gary is contradictory on this point.

THE FORUM

While rolling up a friendly neighborhood
arch-villain this afternoon, inspiration
struck. What would happen if I gave this
7th level assassin a single level of experience
as a fighter first? I tried it. The result produced
a staggeringly powerful NPC that
exposed a serious flaw in the current
"Character With Two Classes" rule.

As many players realize, at low levels the
fighter is one of the most powerful classes
around. In fact, a 1st-level dungeon party
can be composed entirely of these and realize
no noticeable difficulties. Most fledgling
magic-users, thieves, and even clerics are
kept going only by the promise of far
greater things to come. Why, resourceful
players may reason, should the entire party
not begin as fighters and switch to the desired
class after 1 level? The DMG's
"cheating" methods for generating abilities
usually provide the high stats required to do
this. It sounds OK, but look at the results:

1. Non-fighter characters normally restricted
to 18 STR could receive scores
of 18/50, 18/75, or even 18/00!

2. They would receive 4 "starting
weapons" immediately, as well as a gamut
of others upon beginning their new class a
mere 2,000 XP later. As if
this weren't enough, they would ever after
fight at only -2 for non-proficiency.

3. They would be able to obtain high HP
scores at low levels (why fight a giant
rat when you can take on a hydra?), throwing
The Game off balance.

4. Upon reaching so much as 2nd level
in their new class, things would get really
out of hand. The now non-fighters would be
able to carry all sorts of extra goodies normally
restricted to fighters to prevent other
classes from becoming self-made godlings. I
have nightmares about sword-swinging clerics
who sport girdles of giant strength, or of the
warlock with 2 javelins of lightning, a +3
battle axe, and a rod of lordly might stuffed
in his pack, "just in case."

This isn't the only situation, either. What
about the monk with but 1 level of magic-user
experience who discovers a wand of
fire in some forgotten crypt. . . ?

Most players, including my own, have
not yet discovered this overly effective strategy,
but you can see my problem. Minimal
levels of experience in a class can bestow
such advantages that the whole "Two
Classes" threatens to fall apart. Is there any
way to correct this rule, or to dilute some of
the superhumans it creates? What about
allowable weapons? Should a two-classed
character be permitted at all?

David Hutton
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan

Traveller wrote:
Is it possible for a character that starts out play as an Assassin to ever become a Paladin?

IMO those two classes are so opposed in their principals and ethics that an assassin could never become a paladin, although a paladin could become an assassin.
That is, one of evil nature can not expiate their former wickedness so thoroughly as to become a paragon of goodness, but any character can fall into evil to become the nadir of wickedness.

Cheers,
Gary

Joe Maccarrone wrote:
...And another thought that struck me late last night, when I should have been sleeping, after reading the appendices to Castle Zagyg:

I think the dual classing method you presented in the optional rules would work just fine for human characters in AD&D, replacing the unpopularly restrictive (at least among my players) dual classing rules in the PHB. The rules in CZ provide a practical method that isn't a route to excessive character power.

Since AD&D character classes top out at different numbers of hit dice, not a standard 10 as in C&C, the 'total character level' at which the dual-classed character stops gaining hit dice would have to be something other than 11; I'm thinking it should be the level at which he stops gaining hit dice in his first/primary class...

Any holes in my idea that I'm not considering?

Thank you kindly, sir.

Joe

Actually that sounds fine, but I am not in accord with the standard d10 for character hut points.
I would use the rand of possibilities from d4 through d12 as in OAD&D.

Game designers, eh?!

Gary

Quote:
Originally posted by Baraendur
Gary,

Forgive me if this was asked before in the previous thread, but I'm wondering how you feel about certain 3rd edition rules. The monk and the paladin have a rule stating that if either of them multi-class, they can no longer continue in their advancement in these classes at a later time. Do you feel that these are good rules, especially considering that many of the prestige classes are based on the monk or paladin class?

Hi Baraendur,

The question hasn't been asked before.

Although I am by no means an expert on 3E, I must say that I concur with the rules that limit monk and paladin advancement is a character multi-classes.
Both have special mindsets and dedication to the base class, that of monk or paladin.
One might have logical prestige class based on some facet of the monk's or paladin's underlying dedication and still progress in that specialization, of coourse.
Otherwise, though, I would question the prestige class, not the limitation of progression in either base class.

Cheers,
Gary

Quote:
Originally posted by Cias the Noble
1. In your opinion, should human fighters be able to change into the cavalier class or vice a versa? What about their respective subclasses?

A human fighter of cavalier should be able to switch to the other class.
Not sub-classes in either regard.
A cavalier is a knightly sort of figure, so a fighter might become one and vice versa.

Quote:
Originally posted by Cias the Noble
5. How do you handle the attack/saving throw rolls for dual-classed humans?
I know the Oriental Adventures book said that a dual-classed human always uses the best table, but the earlier books do not mention anything about this;
I am coming to realize that some of the later AD&D books deviated from your original intent for the game on some issues.
On a related note, when a dual-classed or multi-classed fighter/thief attempts a backstab, do you roll on the thief attack matrix or the fighters?
Is the character restricted to using only weapons allowed to thieves when backstabbing?

I always allowed the most favorable saving throw number for dual/multu-classed PCs, just as is indicated in the OA book.

When a PC is acting in a way specific to one of his classes, the backstab you note being specific to the thief class, then the attack would be as a thief backstabbing.
the multi-classed fighter-thief can use all the weapos of both classes, but class specific actions performed might well be hindered or impossible if such weapons (or armor) normally excluded are there to interfere with them. For example, a dagger or short sword is about all that can be used when backstabbing, nit a long sword, as one needs to be up close and aim. attack unnoticed.

Cheers,
Gary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melkor
Hi Gary,

I'm reading through the old AD&D PHB and DMG, and all these questions are popping up. I'll make this one a little less involved than my previous question.

I noticed that the DMG states that a Multi-Class character uses the "best value" of his classes on the Attack Matrix.....Is the same applied to Saving Throws ?
A multiclass character uses the best value between the two classes ?

Thanks!

Originally Posted by ScottGLXIX
Melkor, check the DMG, bottom left of p. 79,
"Multi-class characters, characters with two classes, and bards check the matrix for each class possessed, and use the most favorable result for the type of attack being defended against."
Scott

Hi Melkor

ScottGLXIX covered the question you had perfectly.
Indeed, the most favorable number is used by those PCs with more than one possible for attacks and/or saving throws.

Cheers,
Gary

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