-
Q: Can thieves wear
studded
leather
armor?
A: NO, they can't.
It makes them noisy,
reflects more light than
nice, dark leather,
and just isn't done. And
it's against Guild
rules. You DON't disobey
the Guid if
you want furthering, value
your life,
and other minor details
like that.
(Polyhedron #6)
-
The profession of
thief is not dishonorable, albeit is neither honorable nor highly respected
in some quarters.
The major ability
for a thief is DEX,
and a character
must have not less than a 9 to become a thief.
High<gif.mj>
intel
is also desirable.
Any thief character
with a DEX greater than 15 gains the benefit
of being able to add a bonus of 10% to XP
awarded to him or her by the referee.
A glance at theCHARACTER
ABILITY section preceding this will reveal that high DEX also benefits
thieves in the performance of their class functions.
These functions
are detailed a bit later.
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ALIGNMENT
All thieves are
neutral || evil, although they can be neutral
good (rarely),
and of lawful ||
chaotic nature. Most thieves tend towards evil.
1.
A large number of gamers prefer to use the
earlier
ruling, established in the PH
(page
27), that thieves may start the game
as
NG. Granted, UA has
changed
this rule so that thieves may only be
non-good
(UA, page 7), but Kim
Mohan's
"Arcana update, part 1" (DRAGON®
Magazine
issue #103, page 12) modified this
ruling
to mean that, though they must start as
non-good,
thieves may become good later in
their
careers. This article even noted that assassins
could
change alignment to neutral or even
good
status, given time. Furthermore, Zeb noted in OA
(page 26)
that
a yakuza, an urban underworld character
class,
may be of the LG AL
(presumably
starting the game this way). Being
good,
then, is no problem.
Given
the explosion of new class combinations
possible
for AD&D characters with the UA
and "Arcana update" rules
(particularly
the surprising neutral good ranger/druid
combination
for certain elves, elaborated
upon
by Frank Mentzer in DRAGON issue #100,
page
9), a ranger-thief is not unthinkable. It
even
sounds workable and reasonable.
Consider
a ranger-thief's abilities and outlook.
Here
is a powerful scout, one equipped to
infiltrate
enemy positions, commit sabotage and
theft,
and rescue kidnapped victims of humanoid
armies.
He or she is the best alternative to
using
an assassin when one needs a spy. The
ranger-thief
is an espionage agent and commando
warrior
with ties to both wilderness and
urban
areas. If he or she does not belong to a
thieves
guild, then the necessary training is
gamed
through a military or paramilitary force
controlled
or aided by rangers.
Why
did I place it in your article? This is
harder
to answer. I fear that on occasions I may
tinker
with certain articles, adding new material
that
seems appropriate to the nature of the
topic
and, in my feeling, that makes the articles
more
complete and enhances their usefulness.
For
example, I added half-(aquatic) elves to the
mariner
NPC class (DRAGON issue #107) and
additional
info on "broken arrows" to
the
"Agents and A-Bombs" article in issue #108. I
try
to avoid gilding the lily,
so to speak, and I
confine
my tinkering to minor additions.
Given
the nature of half-satyrs and half-dryads
as
outlined in your article, the ranger/thief
combination
seemed very reasonable for
them
-- which it does (to my way of thinking)
for
elves
&&
half-elves as well.
(113.3)
Question:
Can Thieves be CG? <>
I
have three players who are, and we are wondering if they will have to make
an alignment change.
We
are also wondering whether or not this alignment change is considered voluntary
on their part?
If
it is, will I have to make them drop a level?
Answer:
Thieves can be neutral or evil, but not good. In this situa-
tion,
I don’t think you should force them to make an alignment change.
Just
have them become their new alignments as if they have always
been
of that alignment This way they won’t be penalized for not reading
their
PH,
but the next time they don’t read the book,
don’t
show them any mercy—unless,of course, you goofed too.
(Update:
Thieves can be NG, but cannot start as NG).
Question:
According to the PH (page 27)
thieves
can be NG, but Sage Advice (TD #35) says
that
thieves cannot be good. Which is correct?
Answer:
The PH — but remember, good thieves
should
be very rare. — W. Niebling, J. Ward
(Update:
Thieves can be NG, but cannot start as NG).
Thieves are principally
meant to take by cunning and stealth. Thieves have
six-sided HD (d6).
They are, however, able to wear light (leather)
armor and use a
fair # of weapons. Although they fight only slightly
more effectively
than do M-Us, they are able to use stealth in
combat most effectively
by back stabbing. This ability is xplained
hereafter.
The primary functions
of a thief are:
1) picking pockets,
2)
opening locks,
3) finding/removing traps,
4)
moving
silently, and
5)
hiding in shadows.
These functions are
basically self-explanatory. The chance for success of
any performance
is based on the ability level of the thief performing it.
This is modified
with respect to picking pockets by the experience level of
his or her victim
and by the powers of the observer with respect to hiding
in shadows.
<e>
Secondary functions
of a thief are:
1) listening
at doors to detect sounds behind them,
2)
ascending
and descending vertical surfaces such as walls, and
3) back
stabbing those who happen upon the thief in the performance of
his or her profession.
<e>
Additional abilities which accrue to thieves are:
1.
Thieves'
Cant: All thieves, regardless of alignment,
have their own language,
the "Thieves' Cant".
This language is known in addition to
others which may
be learned because of race and/or
intelligence.
2. Read Languages:
3. Read Scrolls:
At 10th Level (Master
Thief), thieves are able to decipher magickal writings and utilize scrolls
of all sorts, excluding those of clerical, but not druidic, Nature.
However, the fact
that thieves do not fully comprehend magick means that there is a 25% chance
that writings will be misunderstood.
Furthermore, magic
spells from scrolls can be mispronounced when uttered, so that there is
an increasing chance per level of the spell that it will be the esrever
of its intent.
ADQ: When
a thief casts a scroll spell,
there is a chance
of miscasting it which
increases with the
spell's level (PH.27),
apparently similar
to
a spellcaster's
chance
of miscasting a
scroll spell of
a level higher than he could
CAST himself (DMG.128)
For determining the thief's
chance of miscasting
(and resulting spell
effects), what level
of spellcaster is he
considered to be.
Zero?
ADA: Yes,
use that chart. However, treat a
10th level thief
as if a Level 1 caster, 11th
level as if Level
2, etc. (This is, by the way,
the same procedure
as that used for determining
the caster's level
when spells are
used by rangers
and paladins. The 1st
level at which a
spell is available is
always treated as
level 1.)
(Polyhedron #25)
Perhaps
a table such as this:
Richard
wrote:
Gary,
there seems to be a confusion about the TSR Hobbies, 1st
Edition ADandD rpg thief class using magic scrolls.
Look
here: http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt
... 996#398996
The
answer to your first query is there on the thread:
"So
the thief can read clerical scrolls ONLY if they are druidic in nature,
not purely clerical."
These primary, secondary,
and tertiary functions are displayed on a table
hereafter.
Thieves'
Guilds: Thieves cannot build strongholds as some other classes of characters
do.
They can, however,
build a tower or fortified building of the small
castle type (q.v.) for their own safety;
but this construction
must be within, or not
more than a mile
distant from, a town or city.
Any thief character
of 10th or greater level may use his small castle type
building to set
up a headquarters for a gang of thieves, and he or she will
accordingly attract
from 4-24 other thieves. However, this will bring the
enmity of the local
Thieves Guild, and they will struggle to do away with
the rival organization.
Once begun, warfare will end only when and if all
the Master Thieves
on either or both sides are dead, or if the thief
character removes
to another locale.
| Experience Points | Experience Level | 6-Sided
Dice
for Accumulated Experience Points |
Level Title | THACO
/
Backstab |
Saves | Proficiencies | NPC XP Value |
| ---- | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| 0 ---- 1,250 | 1 | 1 | Rogue (Apprentice) | 20 (n), x2 | d13, p12, r14, b16, s15 | 2/3 | - |
| 1,251 ---- 2,500 | 2 | 2 | Footpad | 20 (n), x2 | d13, p12, r14, b16, s15 | ^ | - |
| 2,501 ---- 5,000 | 3 | 3 | Cutpurse | 20 (n), x2 | d13, p12, r14, b16, s15 | ^ | 89 (T2), 116 (T1) |
| 5,001 ---- 10,000 | 4 | 4 | Robber | 20 (n), x2 | d13, p12, r14, b16, s15 | ^ | 207 (T1) |
| 10,001 ---- 20,000 | 5 | 5 | Burglar | 19, x3 | d12, p11, r12, b15, s13 | ^ | 573 (A1-4) |
| 20,001 ---- 42,500 | 6 | 6 | Filcher | 19, x3 | d12, p11, r12, b15, s13 | 3/4 | - |
| 42,501 ---- 70,000 | 7 | 7 | Sharper | 19, x3 | d12, p11, r12, b15, s13 | ^ | 989 (T3) |
| 70,001 ---- 110,000 | 8 | 8 | Magsman | 19, x3 | d12, p11, r12, b15, s13 | ^ | - |
| 101,001 ---- 160,000 | 9 | 9 | Thief | 16, x4 | d11, p10, r10, b14, s11 | ^ | - |
| 160,001 ---- 220,000 | 10 | 10 | Master Thief | 16, x4 | d11, p10, r10, b14, s11 | ^ | 3522 (T1) |
| 220,001 ---- 440,000 | 11 | 10+2 | Master Thief (11th level) | 16, x4 | d11, p10, r10, b14, s11 | 4/5 | - |
| 440,001 ---- 660,000 | 12 | 10+4 | Master Thief (12th level) | 16, x4 | d11, p10, r10, b14, s11 | ^ | - |
| 660,001 ---- 880,000 | 13 | 10+6 | Master Thief (13th level) | 14, x5 | d10, p9, r8, b13, s9 | ^ | - |
| 880,001 ---- 1,100,000 | 14 | 10+8 | Master Thief (14th level) | 14, x5 | d10, p9, r8, b13, s9 | ^ | - |
| 1,100,000 ---- 1,320,000 | 15 | 10+10 | Master Thief (15th level) | - | - | - | - |
220,00 XP per level for each additional level beyond the 12th. <1> <2>
Thieves
gain 2 h.p. per level after the 10th.
CON-based
HP adjustments no longer apply after the 10th level. - OSRIC
THIEF
FUNCTION TABLE (PLUS RACIAL ADJUSTMENTS)
<(PLUS
DEX ADJUSTMENTS) (Consult DEX TABLE II.
if DEX is 12 or less)>
| Level
of the Thief |
Pick
Pockets
[17: 05, 18: 10] |
Open
Locks [16: 5, 17: 10, 18: 15] |
Find/Remove/Set
Traps [18: 5] |
Move
Silently [17: 05, 18: 10] |
Hide
in
Shadows [17: 5, 18: 10] |
Hear
Noise |
Climb
Walls |
Read
Languages |
| 1 | 30% | 25% | 20% | 15% | 10% | 10% | 85% | - |
| 2 | 35% | 29% | 25% | 21% | 15% | 10% | 86% | - |
| 3 | 40% | 33% | 30% | 27% | 20% | 15% | 87% | - |
| 4 | 45% | 37% | 35% | 33% | 25% | 15% | 88% | 20% |
| 5 | 50% | 42% | 40% | 40% | 31% | 20% | 90% | 25% |
| 6 | 55% | 47% | 45% | 47% | 37% | 20% | 92% | 30% |
| 7 | 60% | 52% | 50% | 55% | 43% | 25% | 94% | 35% |
| 8 | 65% | 57% | 55% | 62% | 49% | 25% | 96% | 40% |
| 9 | 70% | 62% | 60% | 70% | 56% | 30% | 98% | 45% |
| 10 | 80% | 67% | 65% | 78% | 63% | 30% | 99% | 50% |
| 11 | 90% | 72% | 70% | 86% | 70% | 35% | 99.1% | 55% |
| 12 | 100% | 77% | 75% | 94% | 77% | 35% | 99.2% | 60% |
| 13 | 105% | 82% | 80% | 99% | 85% | 40% | 99.3% | 65% |
| 14 | 110% | 87% | 85% | 99% | 93% | 40% | 99.4% | 70% |
| 15 | 115% | 92% | 90% | 99% | 99% | 50% | 99.5% | 75% |
| 16 | 125% | 97% | 95% | 99% | 99% | 50% | 99.6% | 80% |
| 17 | 125% | 99% | 99% | 99% | 99% | 55% | 99.7% | 80% |
| - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| Race
of
the Thief |
- | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| Dwarf | - | +10% | +15% | - | - | - | -10% | -5% |
| Elf | +5% | -5% | - | +5% | +10% | +5% | - | - |
| Gnome | - | +5% | +10% | +5% | +5% | +10% | -15% | - |
| Half-Elf | +10% | - | - | - | +5% | - | - | - |
| Halfling | +5% | +5% | +5% | +10% | +15% | +5% | -15% | -5% |
| Half-Orc | -5% | +5% | +5% | - | - | +5% | +5% | -10% |
Notes Regarding Thief Function Table
Percentile dice
are rolled to determine whether the thief is successful or
not. Any score equal
to or less than the percentage shown for the
appropriate level
of thief performing the designated function will indicate
success.
- original idea by Gary Schweitzer (Grognardia)
AT A GLANCE:
There are those whose abilities lie not
with the sword or the Art, but with quiet motion, dexterous action, and
stealth.
Such talents often lead to thiefly endeavors,
which plague most major cities, but are often placed to good use in dealing
with dangerous monsters and lost treasure. <>
<>
ELMINSTER'S
NOTES:
As more people gather in large
cities, more individuals who prey on large collections of mankind
gather as well.
Chief of those are human scavengers who
seek their profession by stealing from others.
In the wilds, such behavior is oftimes
useful and beneficial to the group, but in larger cities, usually spells
trouble, so that most lawful towns hae injunctions against such activities.
Despite such laws, thieves and thievery
are common.
Most major cities have a number of "thieves'
dens" competing in stealing and theft.
A few cities (such as Zhentil
Keep) have an organized group of rogies controlling all such activity,
and can (in the Keep's case) operate from a building in broad daylight.
Most "thieves' dens" are secret gathering
spots, often beneath the city itself, and change as guards and lawful groups
discover them.
The city of Waterdeep had once been home
to the most powerful guild of thieves in the North. <>
The Lords of Waterdeep smashed that guild,
forcing its leaders to flee the city (those leaders are now the Shadow
Thieves of Amn).
There are still thieves, thief-acrobats,
and even assassins in Waterdeep, but they are
broken into innumerable small groups, or operate alone.
The most common respite for such robbers
is what they themselves call "The Honest Trade" -- adventuring, where such
abilities may be used and indeed lionized in song and legend, when what
they are actually doign is fairly similar, the only difference being that
instead of a lord's manor they are burglarizing a lich's
tomb.
Many thieves take to this life, adhering
to a code that keeps them out of trouble in civilized areas but keeps them
in gold.
Some leaders of important organizations
are of this type--their fellow membbers would trust the cash-box with such
an individual in the city, but keep an eye on him in the wild for pocketed
gems and magical items that had "found" their way into his high-topped
boots.
GAME INFO:
Thieves and their sub-classes have the
abilities as given them in PH and UA.
The would-be thief is encouraged to practice
his trade for the benefit of others.
My spiritual Uncle,Bon Scott, having a business discussion with
one of the local merchants.
-
<"Of
the other portions of the AD&D game stemming
from the writing of Jack Vance, the next most important one is the thief-class
character.
Using
a blend of “Cugel the Clever” and Roger Zelazny’s “Shadowjack” for a benchmark,
this archetype character class became what it was in original AD&D."
- Gary Gygax, Jack Vance and the D&D game>
JASON
THE RULESREADER,
Characters should have as much free will as possible in an RPG, don't you agree? The concept of the DM banning them from class-bestowed activity is odious.
If the thieves expect to be protected by the other party members, healed by clerics, given a shgare of party treasure, their pilfering from their comrades should be greatly limited. It is up to the other PCs to lay it on the line to the rampant thieves. The majority of the party might well dictate death for theft from any party member, and carry out an execution of a guilty party without loss of ant Good and/or Lawful alignment.
Of course, as a DM I encourage thieves who risk thier lives scouting and opening possibly trapped containers and all to filch a bit--say a few gems or a piece of jewelry. Reasonable PCs in a party can not seriously take offense at such relatively petty theft.
On the otther hand, my PCS have attacked and killed a PC thief stealing party treasure for his own gain at the expense of the remainder of the party,
Cheers,
Gary
dcas
wrote:
Just
bumping an unanswered question of mine:
Gary,
Do you have a penchant for thief-type characters?
No,
I do not particularly like thief-type characters.
To
the best of my recollection...
The only thief PCs I have played were demi-humans with that class as one of two or more possessed, like my gnome illusionist thief PC that is my most recent OAD&D character done up only about five years back.
Cheers,
Gary
Hi
Antonio,
Have
the chance for a thief character messing up a spell remain as noted, 25%
regardless of the level of the Thief.
If
you don;t feel comforatble with that, then make up a house rule that you
like--perhaps 25% at 12th, -5% per level thereafter, but always with a
5% chance of mis-speaking even at 17th level.
Cheers,
Gary
rabindranath72
wrote:
Thank
you for the clarification! I was mislead by the subsequent "Furthermore..."
sentence regarding the increasing chance of failure.
With
your suggestion the system is mechanically similar to Basic D&D.
Cheers,
Antonio
Perhaps
a table such as this:
CHANCE
FOR 12th LEVEL THIEF TO MIS-SPEAK SCROLL SPELL
Spell
Level
1st
or Protection: 5%
2nd:
10%
3rd:
10%
4th:
15%
5th:
15%
6th:
20%
7th:
20%
8th:
25%
9th:
25%
Reduce each category by 5% per level of thief above 12th, but there is always a 5% chance of mis-speaking any scroll's spell.
Cheers,
Gary
The Thief was based on Jack
of Shadows (Zelazny) and Cugel (Vance) with a touch of REH's Conan,
rather than solely on the Gray Mouser.
Mouser was too good a swordsman
to serve as the pure model.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey
Gary, back in my AD&D
days my group liked to stick to the basics when creating PCs. Everybody
tended to be human rather than demi-human, and we almost never used the
sub-classes (which are noted as optional, anyway). Thus, everybody tended
to be one of the following types of characters:
human cleric
human fighter
human magic-user
human thief
However, of the four the
thief always seemed to be the least popular and the least useful class.
Maybe this was because of our gaming style, or perhaps because we seldom
had city-based adventures. My question is this: How essential to a balanced
AD&D
party is the thief? While I don't see how a party could get by without
clerics, fighters, and magic-users, I've long scratched my head on just
how essential the thief is to a party's continued success. To us, the thief
always seemed more non-essential (similar to a druid or a monk) than one
would think since it's one of the four core classes.
The thief is a strong archetype
in fantasy and adventure stories in general.
The main drawback to having
one in the party was...theft!
Otherwise, we always appreciated
a thief PC being able to scout ahead, check for and remove
traps, pick locks, cimb up where the rest of the PCs couldn't reach
easily, and even pop out of shadows to strike a dangerous opponent for
added damage.
As encounters became more
complex and dangerous, the party's thief became a lot more in demand.
Just being able to have
a member go ahead, see what was awaiting, and return to warn the other
PCs was often the difference between success and failure.
Thief characters that prospered
understoon that their purloining had to be kept to a reasonably modest
"extra share," or else the other PC would grab them, turn them upside hown,
and shake them 
Of course when I was DMing
I did my best to encoutrage thieves to be greedy, so as to give the party
problems from within, that seeming logical when they had a sneaky stealer
of wealth along.
When I played a multi-classed demi-human with that ability I made sure to keep on the good side of the non-thief PCs too.
Cheers,
Gary
<note: get the Jeff Dee image for this one>
1. SUBCLASS = n/a
2. SOCIAL CLASS MINIMUM = LLC (01: LLC)
3. ABILITY SCORE MINIMUMS
STRENGTH = 6 (6d6)
INTELLIGENCE = 6 (5d6)
WISDOM = 3 (3d6)
* DEXTERITY = 9 (9d6)
CONSTITUTION = 6 (7d6)
CHARISMA = 6 (4d6)
COMELINESS = 3 (8d6)
PERCEPTION =
4. POSSIBLE RACES & MAX. LEVEL ATTAINABLE
= all races (U)
5. MULTI-CLASS POSSIBILITIES = CT (dg,
ed),
DT (eg, eh, ev, ew, 1/2), FT (all), MT
(ed, eg, eh, ev, ew), IT (gd, gs), CMT (ed, eg, eh, ev, ew), FMT (ed, eg,
eh, ev, ew)
6. HIT DIE TYPE = d6
7. MAXIMUM NUMBER OF HIT DICE = 10
8. SPELL ABILITY = no (Thieves of 10th
level or higher and assassins of 12th level or higher gain the ability
to read M-U's (and illusionists') spells from scrolls). <>
9. ARMOR PERMITTED = any
10. SHIELD PERMITTED = none
11. WEAPONS PERMITTED = bow (short), caltrop,
club,
crossbow (hand), dagger, dart, garrot,
knife, sap, sling, sword (broad), sword (falchion), sword (long), sword
(short)
12. OIL PERMITTED = yes
13. POISON PERMITTED = DM's option
14. ALIGNMENT = LN,
LE, NG (rarely), N, NE, CN, CE (Most thieves tend toward evil.)
Q. The Players Handbook states that
thieves can be lawful in alignment, or
even NG! Isn't this a bit of a
contradiction?
A. Not really. 'Lawful' does not necessarily
mean 'law-abiding', although the
the 2 may be related. Lawful
alignment is a belief in a system
where rewards are dependent upon
adhering to the rules. LE
characters see the world as a structured
place, where the weak serve the
needs of the strong.
A LE thief could see him or
herself as a predator upon the weak
-- by this definition, those unable to
keep what is theirs. The other alternative
for a LE thief is to be a
member of a criminal hierarchy,
similar to, for example, the Mafia.
Individuals within the group obey the
group's rules, yet society's laws are
scorned.
The one that really looks like a
contradiction in terms is the NG
thief, yet the idea of 'robbing the
rich to give to the poor' fits perfectly.
NG characters want the
most beneficial conditions for living
things in general, and redistribution
of wealth through thievery may well
be seen as one way of achieving this
aim.
(Imagine #14)
15. STARTING MONEY = 20-120
gp
16. WEAPON PROFICIENCIES = 2, 1/4 levels
(1st: 2, 5th: 3, 9th: 4, 13th: 5, 17th: 6)
17. NON-PROFICIENCY PENALTY = -3
18. NON-WEAPON
PROFICIENCIES = 3, 1/4 levels (1st: 3, 5th: 4, 9th: 5, 13th: 6, 17th:
7)
19. STARTING AGE = human
(18 + d4: m21), dwarf (75 + 3d6), elf (50 + 5d6), gnome (80 + 5d4:
m91), half-elf (22 + 3d8: m41), halfling (40 + 2d4: m), half-orc (20 +
2d4: m)
20. COMBAT = T
21. SAVING THROWS = T
22. MAGIC ITEMS = T
Q: Why are thieves
restricted to short bows?
Why can't they use long
bows?
A: There are two reasons
for this: game
logic and game balance.
From the standpoint of game
logic, a
long bow is simply too large.
A thief carrying
such a weapon would have
difficulty
hiding or climbing. Therefore,
the thief
learns to use other, more
easily concealed
weapons. There are other
logical considerations.
A long bow requires more
strength
than the average thief has.
Rather than
writing a strength requirement
for the
long bow (and every other
weapon on the
list), we put a class restriction
on it; only
fighters who normally have
high strength
scores can use it.
From the standpoint of game
balance,
only fighter-types have
unlimited choices
of weapons. In order to
make thieves less
effective than fighters
in combat, they
have fewer weapons to use.
Thieves are
not supposed to get into
long-range firefights
with opponents; they're
supposed to
be sneaky. This distinction
between classes
is very important for several
reasons. It
prevents a character with
extremely good
stats from totally dominating
the game,
since no character can do
everything. It
also promotes teamwork and
gives everyone
a chance to have some fun,
again
because no single character
can do it all.
A similar line of logic
applies to all the
other class distinctions.
The AD&D game
simply would lose its appeal
if clerics
could use edged weapons,
if mages could
wear armor, or if fighters
could pick locks.
(139.67)
<note: an earlier version
began with a quote from the Quran>
<not my cup of tea, but
the quote was on topic>
