Success and Failure	Construction Time	Artisans, Craftsmen, and Other NPCs	Optional Bonuses	Craftsman Proficiencies
Adventuring Proficiencies	-	-	-	Experience Points for Proficiencies
-	-	DSG	-	-

    Character proficiencies governing the use of weapons have long
been a part of the AD&D game. The OA rules
introduced nonweapon proficiencies for artistic, practical, and
social categories. In the DSG, the concept
of proficiencies is expanded to include a number of common
skills that can {aid} characters in underground exploration and survival.

    The proficiencies herein represent an optional addition to the
rules set, usable at the DM’s choice. If proficiencies are available
to the PCs, then NPCs should also
be allowed to earn them, or the balance of the game will suffer.

    All characters start play with a number of proficiency slots at
1st level. Depending on the character’s class, some or all of these
can be filled by weapon training. Slots that are not devoted to
!weapons can then be assigned to other skills. Characters are not
required to fill all of their proficiency slots; those not filled can be
saved and used at a later time. Once a proficiency slot has been
filled, however, it cannot be changed for any reason. Table 10:
Character Proficiencies lists the number of proficiencies allotted
to each character class, the number of proficiencies that must be
assigned to weapon and nonweapon areas, and the number
gained per level.

Table 10: Character Proficiencies

Class of Character	Initial # of Proficiencies Weapon/Nonweapon	Add Proficiency Per Level Weapon/Nonweapon
CAVALIER*	3/2	1/1 per 2 levels
Paladin	3/2	1/1 per 2 levels
CLERIC	2/3	1/1 per 4 levels
Druid	2/3	1/1 per 5 levels
FIGHTER	4/2	1/1 per 3 levels
Barbarian	6/3	1/1 per 2 levels
Ranger	3/2	1/1 per 3 levels
MAGIC-USER	1/3	1/1 per 6 levels
Illusionist	1/3	1/1 per 6 levels
THIEF	2/3	1/1 per 4 levels
Acrobat	2/3	1/1 per 4 levels
Assassin	3/2	1/1 per 4 levels
MONK	1/1	1/1 per 2 levels
BARD	As other classes	1/1 per 4 levels

* 0th-level horsemen and 0th-level lancers have one non-weapon proficiency.

lnitial #of Proficiencies shows the number of proficiencies that
the character has at 1st level. The number to the left of the slash
is the number of WPs; the number to the right is
the number of NWPs. Characters must fill the
slots with the appropriate type of skill.

Add Proficiency per Level lists the number of experience levels
that must be gained before the character is entitled to add
another proficiency. For example, 1/1 per 4 levels means that the
character must advance four levels to earn an additional skill
in both the weapon and nonweapon categories. First level
is included when counting levels.

NONWEAPON PROFICIENCIES

Success and Failure

Under normal conditions, there is no chance of failure involved
when characters attempt to use most NWPs.
A boatwright, for example, given all of the tools of his trade,
plenty of raw materials, and time, is able to produce a boat to any
realistic set of specifications. If the same boatwright is stranded
in a dank underground cave with a few pieces of rope and whatever
driftwood happens to float by, however, he must make a Proficiency
Check to determine whether his attempt to build a crude
boat is successful. <add to boatwright>

A Proficiency Check for use of a proficiency is necessary in two
cases: to determine if the specific task is performed within a
given set of limitations (as in the boatbuilding example), or to
gauge the quality of a piece of work when such an evaluation is
desired.

A Proficiency Check is made exactly like an Ability Check. The
player rolls 1d20 and compares the result to the character’s ability
score in the area listed for that proficiency. In many cases, a
proficiency will be listed with an Ability Check modifier (see the
specific proficiencies). This is a die roll modifier. Thus, a +3
makes a d20 roll of 12 equal to a 15. In addition, as a character
uses additional proficiency slots to improve a given proficiency
(instead of adding a new one), the proficiency die roll modifier is
increased by 2 for each additional slot.

When the check is to determine the quality of workmanship, a
successful roll means that the work is of superior craftsmanship.
The exact amount of success determines the degree of perfection,
so that a 20 equals a nearly flawless creation. If the character
sells this product, the price earned is from 110%-200% of
what would normally be offered.

Regardless of modifiers, whenever a Proficiency Check results
in a 3 or less, the attempt to use the proficiency fails.
 

Construction Time
Many proficiencies list a specific amount of time required for
the use of the proficiency. This time requirement assumes that
the character devotes his entire working day to his proficiency. If
the character takes time out to hunt, fight, or yield to any other
distractions, the time required to accomplish the task should be
correspondingly increased.

In addition to the weapons proficiencies described in the PH & UA, characters can learn proficiencies
in various areas related to underground exploration.
Since all characters spend time engaged in pursuits other than
combat, these NWPs reflect abilities gained
through noncombat activities.

Nonweapon proficiencies allow players an additional opportunity
to develop well-rounded characters. A variety of nonweapon
proficiencies can help ensure the survival of a character and his
party. Players are encouraged to distribute NWPs
among their characters.

NWPs also provide a means of adjudicating
PC’s use of Secondary Skills, as generated by the
table on DMG page 12. Characters who have earned Secondary
Skills in their campaign should be granted proficiencies in these
areas of skill. Converting Secondary Skills to proficiencies
requires one proficiency slot for every one or two Secondary
Skills. Thus, characters with two Secondary Skills can earn proficiencies
in both areas by using only one proficiency slot. Since
some Secondary Skills do not have corresponding proficiencies
in these rules, they continue to function as normal Secondary
Skills.

This section includes two types of proficiencies: adventuring
proficiencies and craftsman proficiencies.

Adventuring proficiencies represent skills that increase a character’s
capacity for dealing with the underground environment.
Some useful adventuring proficiencies include climbing, swimming
and boating. Craftsman proficiencies generally represent
skills that help a character prepare for adventuring, and these
skills often require a great deal more equipment and resources
than adventuring skills do. Weaponsmith, smelter, and
boatwright are proficiencies of the craftsman class.

Peaceful proficiencies are acquired during characters’ free
time. There are normally gaps between adventures and there
may even be unoccupied hours during the course of the adventures
themselves. These free periods allow characters sufficient
time to learn and develop new skills.

The only requirements for learning a proficiency are that the
character have the necessary tools at hand and, when first learning
the skill, be in an environment where he can receive training
and guidance from those skilled in the art. To learn to build a boat
effectively, a character must have a body of water available, the
wood, skins, reeds, or other material that he intends to build the
boat with, and the presence and cooperation of a skilled boat
builder.

It may occasionally be possible for a character to obtain a magical
item that can aid in the use of a given proficiency. Such items
are only useful if the character possesses the appropriate proficiency.
If the proficiency is known, the magical item can either
improve the success rate of the character when employing the
proficiency, or improve the quality of the product or function of the
proficiency.

Proficiencies can also be improved as characters advance in
levels and gain access to more proficiency slots. When a slot is
added, it can be used to augment an existing proficiency instead
of adding a new one. The modifier (the number that is added to
the appropriate ability score for Proficiency Checks) of a proficiency
thus enhanced is increased by two. For example, a character
with a miner proficiency modifier of -1 could increase that
rating to 1 by adding an additional slot of proficiency to his miner
skill.

Artisans, Craftsmen, and Other NPCs

The NWPs are skills that can be learned by
adventurers in addition to their primary vocations. Naturally, most
adventurers do not have a great deal of time in which to pursue
these extra skills.

Characters who do not devote much of their time to the mastering
of character class skills, however, tend to become even more
proficient in nonweapon skills than PCs. These artisans
devote their lives to perfecting proficiencies that do not
involve adventure && combat.

In order to calculate the proficiency rating of these characters
at an appropriately accomplished rate, a conversion is necessary.

NPCs who do not claim a weapon proficiency should be
<2>: allowed to claim two nonweapon proficiency slots after passing
through a period of training for a peaceful skill. This means that a
character has progressed through the apprenticeship to the journeyman
stage of his craft.

After one to four years of practice as a journeyman, the character
advances to the master level of his profession, and is granted
<3>: an additional proficiency slot. For every four years of work thereafter,
<+1>: he gains an additional proficiency slot. Thus, as a master
craftsman gains decades of experience, he becomes very skilled
at what he does. This creates a more realistic representation of
the roles of such skilled noncombatant characters.

<WP>: A character with an adventuring character class can elect to
gain peaceful proficiencies in lieu of weapon proficiencies. As the
character advances in level, he can elect to gain one additional
NWP slot at a cost of one weapon proficiency
slot. He cannot, however, gain additional weapon slots by sacrificing
nonweapon slots.

Optional Bonuses

The DM, as always, is allowed to modify and expand on the
rules for NWPs. If, for example, an armorer has
has access to a particularly strong type of metal, the DM might
allow the character to produce a limited amount of improved nonmagical
+ 1 or +2 armor.

Additional modifiers can be added based upon a character’s
background, if this has been developed for campaign purposes.
If a character spent much of his youth as an apprentice to a
skilled weaponsmith, the DM can rule that the character’s lessons
were so thorough that he can gain automatic proficiency as
a weaponsmith.

Q: Say, what's up with the DSG proficiencies
system? The modifiers for
increased skill seem to penalize
rather than reward, and the conditions
for doing a great job seem to
be exactly wrong. What gives?

A: OK, OK, OK, already! You're right --
there is something wrong with the DSG NWP
system. Our
thanks to all the players and DMs who
wrote (more or less politely) and informed
us of this fact.

The original system was changed during
the final playtesting period that took place
while the book was being edited. We went
through the manuscript and thought we
had caught all the places where the text
needed to be changed. We missed a couple
of simple ones, and this caused a tremendous
problem in the system.

The solution is simple. The column on
Tables 11 and 13 (pages 25 and 26, respectively)
that reads "Die Roll Modifier"
should read "Ability Modifier." Also, every
place you see "die roll modifier" in the
Proficiencies section, change it to "ability
modifier." This is what was originally intended,
so that adding proficiency slots
improves your character's skills. Notice
that the proficiencies with negative modifiers
are the most difficult to master in
this corrected system. <check that this is corrected>

The second change that needs to be
made involves the discussions of Proficiency
Checks that grant extraordinarily
good or bad results (these unusual results
come from the Proficiency Check roll
itself, not from a separate roll to deter-
mine extraordinary success or failure).
The numbers mentioned in those passages
should be reversed (i.e., change "1" to "20,"
"20" to "1," "3 or less" to "18 or greater:
etc.). For example, at the top of page 26, it
says that a roll of 20 increases the range of
the bow or arrow by + 2". This should say
that a roll of 1 grants this increase, Similar
passages also exist in the weaponsmith
and direction-sense proficiencies. And
don't forget to change the paragraph on
page 23 (right above the "Construction
Time" heading) to say that a check of 18 or
greater is a failure! <check that this is corrected>
(118.58)

<check the WSG proficiencies, and make sure that everything is consistent>
 

NONWEAPON PROFICIENCIES (CRAFTSMAN)

Craftsman Proficiencies

Each proficiency on Table 11: Craftsman Proficiencies gives
the number of proficiency slots required to gain that proficiency.
In addition, any die roll modifiers that apply to the Proficiency
Check are listed. Remember, the Proficiency Check is made like
an Ability Check. When the slots required number is marked with
an asterisk, a Proficiency Check is required every time that proficiency
is used. The appropriate ability score to use for the Proficiency
Check is given for each Proficiency.

Table 11: CRAFTSMAN PROFICIENCIES

Proficiency	Slots  Required	Appropriate  Ability	Ability  Modifier
Animal Trainer	1*	Wis	0
Armorer	2*	Int	-2
Blacksmith	1	Str	0
Boatwright	1	Int	-2
Bowyer/Fletcher	1*	Dex	-1
Carpenter	1	Str	0
Gem Cutter	2	Dex	-2
Leatherworker	1	Int	0
Miner	2	Wis	-3
Potter	1	Dex	-2
Smelter	1	Int	-2
Stonemason	1	Str	-2
Weaponsmith	3*	Int	-3
Weaver	1	Int	-1

<check to see if the Die Roll Modifiers are correct (not inversed)>
<once confirmed, then add headings to each of the individual skill descriptions>

* This proficiency requires a d20 roll for success each time it is used.
 

Gond (god of crafts)
 
 

Adventuring Proficiencies

Table 13: ADVENTURING PROFICIENCIES

Proficiency	Slots  Required	Appropriate  Ability	Die Roll  Modifier
Animal Noise	1	Wisdom	-1
Blind-Fighting	1	NA	NA
Boating	1	Wisdom	+1
Direction Sense	1*	Wisdom	+1
Endurance	2	NA	NA
Fire-building	1	Wisdom	-1
Fishing	1*	Wisdom	-1
Fungus Identification	1	Intelligence	+6
Healing	2*	Wisdom	+2
Mountaineering	1	NA	NA
Riding <mount>	1	Wisdom	+3
Rope Use	1	Dexterity	0
Slow Respiration	1	NA	NA
Sound Analysis	1	Wisdom	-1
Swimming	1	Strength	0

* This proficiency requires a d20 roll for success (Proficiency Check) each time it is used.

NA: Not Applicable means that use of this proficiency never
requires a Proficiency Check and thus these categories do not

Experience Points for Proficiencies

Use of proficiencies by PCs does NOT result in
XP awards. Since PCs spend their lives adventuring,
any uses of NWPs serve primarily to augment
the adventuring, and thus do not warrant experience
awards.

NPCs who make a living through the use of
NWPs may gain XP from proficiency
use, in order to go up in level. Such characters should gain
1d4 hit points for each level. The primary purpose of advancing is
to gain additional proficiency slots, and the NPCs can thus
improve their performance as their careers advance.

If NPCs are advanced this way, simply use the level advancement table for fighters to determine the intervals between each level.
The NPC should gain one XP for every two gp of income netted by his business.

This system may require that the DM keep careful records for a
large number of NPCs. As with many things, it might be easier to
simply assign these characters additional levels of ability as time
goes by, without recording each NPC’s actual income.
 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eyebeams
Hi Gary,

It's great to read about the rules you're using in your personal D&D game (and in fact, I hope some enterprising fellow with web skills I don't have compiles them -- I'd like to try them out!).

My question is: How do you handle non-theiving, non-combat tasks? Do characters have an AD&D style trade profession, or has it just not come up?

Heh...

When most of the play is action-based, there isn't much need to check on non-cmbat tasks. When needed, though, I do have a chack made against a stat, with such modification as I deem appropriate for the circumstances.

Cheers,
Gary
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eyebeams
Thank you. Are these checks on 1d20? 3d6?

D20 so as to have a level prbability curve

Quote:
Originally Posted by eyebeams
I'm thinking I might use a mix of your idea and the AD&D system. Maybe I'll give each character one "trade." Tasks where that trade applies are made with a 4d6 (roll under) check. If the character doesn't have the trade, it's 5d6 or impossible. Maybe at a high enough level you can choose a second trade or to jump to "Master" level, rolling on 3d6.

You might want to check out Castle Zagyg, Yggsburgh, when it's released.
I have a skills system in there to make things more interesting for character class individuals, both PCs and NPCs.
It is very general and without a lot of rules and cases, more guidlines for the Gm than anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eyebeams
I'm also interested in the idea of using hit dice for checks (kind of like you did when you talked about orcs grappling a PC). I wonder what else I could apply that to? Lots of good ideas there.

Most applicable to conflict situation resolution, I should think...
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eyebeams
I see. A d20-roll version of my idea, then, would be a lot like what I've heard about C&C. maybe:

Unskilled: -6 to the effective attribute
Journeyman: -3 to the affected attribute
Master: No penalty.

Actually, -4 and -8 might be better, but maybe a bit hard for heroic characters . . .

Perhaps, then we give starting characters one trade skill (just like in AD&D) and add either Master status or a new trade at, say, 4th, 7th and 10th level (I'd keep this low level). I like the fact that a Name level character might be a master of the trade of his or her youth and one learned later during adventuring, or four different, lightly known fields.

Why not have the PCs have to expend some XPs to move up in their skill just as they need them for class level?

...

Quote:
Originally Posted by eyebeams
Thanks for the inspiration, Gary!

Sharing the enjoyment of the creative muse<biggrin>

Cheers,
Gary

<note: at higher levels, this could be a problem - prespos>
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eyebeams
...

...Still, I'm worried about it looking too much like third edition multiclassing.

Having PCs with abilities that qualify for the comic book superhero role is not desirable in a FRPG, I concur.
If you have secondary skills, be sure to keep them as just that--secondary and not powerful in application, uncertain in application.

Cheers,
Gary

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Drake
Hello Gary!
Now, just to harken back to a couple of posts reagarding the creation a second edition for AD&D, back when you were still with TSR: so, when you were thinking about this at the the time, was it because you really felt the game needed it or was there some sort of demand from the gaming public at the time? Now, while I did play the 2e that did come out, I personally felt it was not a great improvement upon your original work, in fact, I always thought that a diluting occured (ranger class being a prime example) and one I never fully understood.

Indeed, I wanted make the revised AD&D system more akin to the material in UA, to ass a few new character classes, and put in some skills ala those I added in the C&C game so as to make the characters, particularly the NPCs, less cookie-cuter.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by haakon1

Hmmm, how would you translate levels to medieval guild positions?
...

Or this:
1st = apprentice
5th = journeyman
9th = master

I vote for the "Or this" ranking with the following additions:
2nd = seasoned apprentice
3rd = skilled apprentice
4th = senior apprentice

6th = experienced journeyman
7th = journeyman of merit
8th = senior journeyman

10th = senior master
12th = grand master
13th = guild master
14th = past master

Gary

Quote:
Originally Posted by haakon1
... I guess that's a way of saying "journeyman" or at least you're ready to solo completely/your training is now complete.

Few persons are ever at their maximum potential.
There is always benefit to further study, prectice, and actual experience 

Cheers,
Gary
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron
I agree. I am glad you liked the concept too.

I was thinking about taking out the NWP system and I was wondering if this move wouldn't hurt the balance of the Oriental Adventures characters. However, I downloaded your C&C file and, although I only quickly read it, sounds pretty good. The multiclassing rule is clearly superior to the one found in AD&D and the skill bundles looks like a better system than the NWP from late AD&D. Is that a new design or something you were considering to your second edition AD&D?

Anyway, thanks for the comments.
Ron

Welcome!

I was indeed considering something akin to what I did for the C&C system in regards to secondary skills for a revised edition of AD&D.
Of course the current material I put together is influenced by what I created for the Lejendary Adventure RPG, thus more developed that what I was working on back in the 80s.

Cheers,
Gary
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erekose
Presumably Lejendary Adventures would give me a clue but I haven't yet had the opportunity to look at that game. 

The Lejendary Adventure game is skill-bundle-based, rules light, and although it has the same spirit as AD&D, it is quite different, with no character classes, archetypical avatars created by choosing an Order, and otherwise complete freedom to build a game persona of vitrually any sort.

For an example of what I would have done regarding skills in a revsied addition of AD&D, check out the C&C game's skills, for I added those to the rules when I wrote the Castle Zagyg, Yggsburgh book a couple of years or so back. These are skill bundles also, can be purchased with XPs, and for NPCs some confer levels in class as well as conveying skills.

Cheers,
Gary